Let’s also not forget 2007 in Mombasa. Sorry, but that race comes to mind as much as many of his wins, maybe more. That has always been a dark mark on his goat status. I always got the vibe that when the going got too tough for KB, he just dns, dnfs.
Let’s not forget Kipchoge reduced to a jello-legged walk by the GOAT in St Galmier in 2005
That was a great race. He put 31 seconds on Kipchoge in the last 1500 or so.
Come on folks, you have to put some parameters around "GOAT discussion" first. You say "distance GOAT", but what does that mean? In Olympic/WC events between 1500M and marathon? Ok, what about cross country then? It has a world championship but no Olympics. Is it part of "distance GOAT" or not?
Secondly, is winning the biggest races (Oly/WC) the most important, or is it setting records?
If you include XC and consider winning to be paramount, then how in the hell would anyone argue against KB? It's not even close when you count up Gold medals.
If you exclude XC, then it gets more interesting, because I think Mo Farah has a good claim based on winning the biggest races, but still you also have KB, Geb, and Kipchoge (we have to call WMM as medals I think).
If you talk less about winning the biggest races and more about the fastest times over a wide range of distances, then we have all of the above (except Farah) but plus Aiouta at least ... but Geb had so many more from 3:31 1500 indoors to setting marathon world record multiple times, and EVERYTHING in between.
KB at one time was indisputably the best on the track at his peak, he was also indisputably the best XC racer of all time at his peak, and in spite of it all, he has the second fastest marathon and also a 2:03 flat that was only 5 or 6 seconds off the then world record.
El G doesn't even register because he was a 1500 guy that did a couple of 3000 and 5000, albeit at a pretty high level. He probably had the talent to be WR holder in all three of those distances had he put more effort in the late 90s.
In my book, distance is 5000m-10000m-XC-Marathon. WRs and good times, Olympics Medals, WC Medals and WMM Wins/Podiums are the important results.
Kipchoge's 2:00 and 1:59 "races" are probably worth the same/a bit less than his world record run in Berlin, but I wouldn't rank them higher because we don't know how much time he saved with the pacing and all. Could have KB run 1:59 in Vienna too ? Probably.
Overall, I'd say the best distance runner is KB as he has the best results over all these distances. I would but Haile 2nd, Kipchoge 3rd, Farah 4th.
El G doens't really qualify as he's a 1500 runner, but he's easily the GOAT over 1500.
I think the GOAT remains Bekele. Kipchoge is the greatest Marathoner of all time I would definitely say. However, Bekele beat Kipchoge on the track and in cross country when both were in their primes. Kipchoge has the 2003 title but that proved to be anomalous. Bekele's peak, peak era (2002-2009) is not as long, but he did do impressive things on the roads the last decade-plus. While Cheptegei has beaten his times with some aid from the supershoes and wavelength, he hasn't matched his medal collection or gotten even close yet. Bekele to me is the greatest 5K-10K and Cross Country champion in the sport's history. That just barely trumps Marathon success, and adding in the head-to-head success as well.
OK you're just riding Kipchoges ****. You just cherrypicked the best stretch of his career as his prime. No ones real prime is in their 30s you're ridiculous. Bekele was better than EK. That's indisputable. EK beat Bekele ONCE in a major championship. End of story. He was not even close in any other championship. Bekele never had to lean on the line as EK when he won silver wasn't anywhere near him. In your approximation EK was an outlier in 03 but was not in his prime until 2014? That makes no sense. He has his best period from 2014-19 but that was NOT his physical prime.
Jesus, dude. How can you say that the last ~7 years were not the prime of Kipchoge’s career? It’s quite simple.
So prime Kipchoge was better at the marathon than well-past-his-prime Bekele. Fair enough.
Come on folks, you have to put some parameters around "GOAT discussion" first. You say "distance GOAT", but what does that mean? In Olympic/WC events between 1500M and marathon? Ok, what about cross country then? It has a world championship but no Olympics. Is it part of "distance GOAT" or not?
Secondly, is winning the biggest races (Oly/WC) the most important, or is it setting records?
If you include XC and consider winning to be paramount, then how in the hell would anyone argue against KB? It's not even close when you count up Gold medals.
If you exclude XC, then it gets more interesting, because I think Mo Farah has a good claim based on winning the biggest races, but still you also have KB, Geb, and Kipchoge (we have to call WMM as medals I think).
If you talk less about winning the biggest races and more about the fastest times over a wide range of distances, then we have all of the above (except Farah) but plus Aiouta at least ... but Geb had so many more from 3:31 1500 indoors to setting marathon world record multiple times, and EVERYTHING in between.
KB at one time was indisputably the best on the track at his peak, he was also indisputably the best XC racer of all time at his peak, and in spite of it all, he has the second fastest marathon and also a 2:03 flat that was only 5 or 6 seconds off the then world record.
El G doesn't even register because he was a 1500 guy that did a couple of 3000 and 5000, albeit at a pretty high level. He probably had the talent to be WR holder in all three of those distances had he put more effort in the late 90s.
In my book, distance is 5000m-10000m-XC-Marathon. WRs and good times, Olympics Medals, WC Medals and WMM Wins/Podiums are the important results.
Kipchoge's 2:00 and 1:59 "races" are probably worth the same/a bit less than his world record run in Berlin, but I wouldn't rank them higher because we don't know how much time he saved with the pacing and all. Could have KB run 1:59 in Vienna too ? Probably.
Overall, I'd say the best distance runner is KB as he has the best results over all these distances. I would but Haile 2nd, Kipchoge 3rd, Farah 4th.
El G doens't really qualify as he's a 1500 runner, but he's easily the GOAT over 1500.
Well heck, if we are adding any kind of distances on trails and terrain like XC, etc., and we're talking dominance over races, then the true distance GOAT is already determined and has been determined for years...it's Dean Karnazes.
The Bekele of the last decade has been an often over weight, out of shape and undependable flake, more likely to not show up then to flash his brilliance. The longer he continues, the more he tarnishes his standing rather than add to it. Berlin in 2019 was amazing, but more the exception than the rule. The first act of EK’s career was great, but not goat like. He certainly was among the top few distance runners of the 2000s, but no, he was not the best, not close. EK then found his optimal distance and his second act has been a marvel. Whether to start with a bang and go out with mostly a whimper versus start decent and end with brilliance is better is debatable. The reason KB is in the conversation is the truly remarkable feet of being a great distance runner and then in the latter half of his career becoming the greatest marathoner. To me, this is a more impressive career arc than KB’s.
The Bekele of the last decade has been an often over weight, out of shape and undependable flake, more likely to not show up then to flash his brilliance. The longer he continues, the more he tarnishes his standing rather than add to it. Berlin in 2019 was amazing, but more the exception than the rule. The first act of EK’s career was great, but not goat like. He certainly was among the top few distance runners of the 2000s, but no, he was not the best, not close. EK then found his optimal distance and his second act has been a marvel. Whether to start with a bang and go out with mostly a whimper versus start decent and end with brilliance is better is debatable. The reason EK is in the conversation is the truly remarkable feet of being a great distance runner and then in the latter half of his career becoming the greatest marathoner. To me, this is a more impressive career arc than KB’s.
The Bekele of the last decade has been an often over weight, out of shape and undependable flake, more likely to not show up then to flash his brilliance. The longer he continues, the more he tarnishes his standing rather than add to it. Berlin in 2019 was amazing, but more the exception than the rule. The first act of EK’s career was great, but not goat like. He certainly was among the top few distance runners of the 2000s, but no, he was not the best, not close. EK then found his optimal distance and his second act has been a marvel. Whether to start with a bang and go out with mostly a whimper versus start decent and end with brilliance is better is debatable. The reason EK is in the conversation is the truly remarkable feet of being a great distance runner and then in the latter half of his career becoming the greatest marathoner. To me, this is a more impressive career arc than KB’s.
This guy gets it.
No, it really makes no sense. The only way it makes sense is if you overrate the marathon as you guys seem to do. The chronology doesn't matter as much as you think. Whereas total accomplishments, titles, times and versatility matter way more, and in those departments KB wins very clearly. EK is insanely good, I'm not trying to downplay that, but you guys let recency bias dillute your view of KB.
I wonder if the court of popular opinion has changed their minds on this at all since last July, or if I’d still be equally crucified. Last week, I was nearly hanged for suggesting that Kipchoge might’ve struggled with Evans Chebet on that particular Monday, while people tease “Fat Kenny” and ridicule Jos Hermens’s claims that he’s bent on “doing something special” his next time out.
I’m ready to resume this argument. Eliud Kipchoge is the greatest distance runner of all time.
Bekele’s claim to G.O.A.T. status took a bit of a hit last year when Cheptegei claimed his 5k & 10k WRs, and unfortunately for him he won’t be competing in these games.
You know what’s worse than losing the 5k/10k WRs after holding them for ~15 years? Never having them.
I wonder if the court of popular opinion has changed their minds on this at all since last July, or if I’d still be equally crucified. Last week, I was nearly hanged for suggesting that Kipchoge might’ve struggled with Evans Chebet on that particular Monday, while people tease “Fat Kenny” and ridicule Jos Hermens’s claims that he’s bent on “doing something special” his next time out.
I’m ready to resume this argument. Eliud Kipchoge is the greatest distance runner of all time.
100% Kipchoge is the all time marathon G.O.A.T., for sure. But for 5K/10K, I don't see how you give it to anyone other than Bekele and/or Haile G. Although, yes, 5K and marathon races are technically both "long distance" races, the events are so different I think they deserve separate consideration. Plus, the careers of all of these guys traverse multiple era's from the pre-testability of EPO (not accusing anyone) through the super-shoe era. I'm happy giving out more than one G.O.A.T. trophy. All three of those are deserving.
Eliud in each of his marathoning olympic cycles is on track to be the top three greatest marathoners of all time. People didn't talk about it much, I guess because it's Eliud and we've all been out of superlatives for a couple years now, but he just ran 2:02:40 in Tokyo. The guy has the #1, #3, and #4 fastest performances of all time. For good measure he has #13 and #22 as well. Excluding the exhibition runs, he has 12 performances at 2:05:00 or faster. The shortest possible time for building a career comparable to Eliud's is six years, running under 2:05 twice a year. That's just to be in the same ballpark.
Anyways, personally I think it's a bit foolish to relitigate what happened on the track in the 2000's. No amount of sub 2:03's can change where Eliud finished in those olympic games; and no amount of 2:10+ or DNF's can erase the majestic dominance of Bekele in that era. But the arrow of time remains ever pointed, and we are in a different time now. I think what makes Eliud most special is not just that he is the marathon GOAT, but that he will very likely remain that for the rest of time. Bekele's records have been shown to be beatable, and his championship dominance has been replicated. No one has put the two together the way he has yet, but in the next couple decades, it's very likely going to happen, a talent will rise up, claim both the 5/10 records, and win 3 or 4 olympic golds with world championship dominance a long the way. This is something that happens in the sport with generational regularity.
But Eliud has won four London marathons; he has won in Chicago, London, Berlin, and Tokyo. He has won two olympic golds, and has a third in his sights. Someone will definitely run faster than him, and the 2x olympic gold in the event is not an impossible achievement, it has historical precedent. But compiling eleven major wins, having a winning streak of ten of the most competitive marathons available; there is good reason to believe that this simply will not happen again.
Only time will tell, but I suspect that Eliud's marathon GOATness will prove impervious to the vicissitudes of passing years in a way that Bekele's will not.
Eliud in each of his marathoning olympic cycles is on track to be the top three greatest marathoners of all time. People didn't talk about it much, I guess because it's Eliud and we've all been out of superlatives for a couple years now, but he just ran 2:02:40 in Tokyo. The guy has the #1, #3, and #4 fastest performances of all time. For good measure he has #13 and #22 as well. Excluding the exhibition runs, he has 12 performances at 2:05:00 or faster. The shortest possible time for building a career comparable to Eliud's is six years, running under 2:05 twice a year. That's just to be in the same ballpark.
Anyways, personally I think it's a bit foolish to relitigate what happened on the track in the 2000's. No amount of sub 2:03's can change where Eliud finished in those olympic games; and no amount of 2:10+ or DNF's can erase the majestic dominance of Bekele in that era. But the arrow of time remains ever pointed, and we are in a different time now. I think what makes Eliud most special is not just that he is the marathon GOAT, but that he will very likely remain that for the rest of time. Bekele's records have been shown to be beatable, and his championship dominance has been replicated. No one has put the two together the way he has yet, but in the next couple decades, it's very likely going to happen, a talent will rise up, claim both the 5/10 records, and win 3 or 4 olympic golds with world championship dominance a long the way. This is something that happens in the sport with generational regularity.
But Eliud has won four London marathons; he has won in Chicago, London, Berlin, and Tokyo. He has won two olympic golds, and has a third in his sights. Someone will definitely run faster than him, and the 2x olympic gold in the event is not an impossible achievement, it has historical precedent. But compiling eleven major wins, having a winning streak of ten of the most competitive marathons available; there is good reason to believe that this simply will not happen again.
Only time will tell, but I suspect that Eliud's marathon GOATness will prove impervious to the vicissitudes of passing years in a way that Bekele's will not.
You're conveniently forgetting about Bekele's unparalleled dominance of World XC, back when it was arguably the most competitive race on the planet.
And you're leaving out the fact that Bekele's records have been broken only with the aid of supershoes and perfect wavelight pacing. Give prime-era Bekele that technology and it's clear he'd beat Cheptegei's marks.
Finally, you (and basically everyone on this thread) are overlooking the fact that Bekele more or less dominated the Golden League meets for years, often against fields nearly as competitive as those of Olympics finals. That's not as meaningful as winning Oly medals, but beating guys like Sihine, Kipchoge, Tadesse, Kipsiro, Lagat etc. week after week for years on end doesn't count for nothing.
As others have said, those arguing in favor of Kipchoge are relying largely on recency bias, having either forgotten about or deliberately overlooked major parts of what made Bekele's dominance so impressive.
Eliud in each of his marathoning olympic cycles is on track to be the top three greatest marathoners of all time. People didn't talk about it much, I guess because it's Eliud and we've all been out of superlatives for a couple years now, but he just ran 2:02:40 in Tokyo. The guy has the #1, #3, and #4 fastest performances of all time. For good measure he has #13 and #22 as well. Excluding the exhibition runs, he has 12 performances at 2:05:00 or faster. The shortest possible time for building a career comparable to Eliud's is six years, running under 2:05 twice a year. That's just to be in the same ballpark.
Anyways, personally I think it's a bit foolish to relitigate what happened on the track in the 2000's. No amount of sub 2:03's can change where Eliud finished in those olympic games; and no amount of 2:10+ or DNF's can erase the majestic dominance of Bekele in that era. But the arrow of time remains ever pointed, and we are in a different time now. I think what makes Eliud most special is not just that he is the marathon GOAT, but that he will very likely remain that for the rest of time. Bekele's records have been shown to be beatable, and his championship dominance has been replicated. No one has put the two together the way he has yet, but in the next couple decades, it's very likely going to happen, a talent will rise up, claim both the 5/10 records, and win 3 or 4 olympic golds with world championship dominance a long the way. This is something that happens in the sport with generational regularity.
But Eliud has won four London marathons; he has won in Chicago, London, Berlin, and Tokyo. He has won two olympic golds, and has a third in his sights. Someone will definitely run faster than him, and the 2x olympic gold in the event is not an impossible achievement, it has historical precedent. But compiling eleven major wins, having a winning streak of ten of the most competitive marathons available; there is good reason to believe that this simply will not happen again.
Only time will tell, but I suspect that Eliud's marathon GOATness will prove impervious to the vicissitudes of passing years in a way that Bekele's will not.
Excellent post, and to quote another great marathoner, “You’re making my point!”
There are a few arguments everyone makes in Bekele’s favor that I view as logical fallacies. The most popular one is how Bekele beat Kipchoge in the ‘04 and ‘08 Olympics “when they were both in their primes,” and I believe this is flawed on two levels. First, both athletes have been active for 5 Olympic cycles now, and here are the results:
2016 - Kipchoge Marathon gold; Bekele Did Not Compete
2021 - Kipchoge Marathon gold; Bekele Did Not Compete
It’s clear to me that Kipchoge has had the better Olympic career. What Bekele accomplished in the 2000s was amazing, but there’s been a historical precedent for it—in fact you could say he fell short of what Viren and Farah achieved with their “double-doubles,” albeit in a more competitive era. There is no precedent for Kipchoge’s Olympic career. As I stated 9 months ago, his winning gold in ‘21 after taking bronze at 5k in ‘04 (and WC gold in ‘03) would be like if Bikila had been dueling Zátopek for the 5k gold in 1948, or Shorter had placed runner-up to Halberg at 5k in 1960. His longevity is bonkers.
The second, rather aggravating fallacy in this argument is that Kipchoge was not “in his prime” on the track in the 2000s; clearly Kipchoge’s prime has come as a marathoner in his 30s. It’s almost as if people think Kipchoge’s career should be appraised as “Marathon career minus track career,” when obviously to have both is a plus.
And even with Bekele’s two great marathons, I believe Kipchoge’s track career was clearly better than Bekele’s marathon career. WC 5k gold over El G & Bekele, Olympic 5k silver & bronze, WC 5k silver in ‘07, and 12:46 when that made him the 4th fastest ever, easily trumps two wins at Berlin in near-WR times, in my opinion.
Just as I don’t think Kipchoge’s track career should work against him, I don’t think Bekele’s marathon career subtracts from his greatness either, only adds to it. But the same people who point to Kipchoge’s track defeats as proof that Bekele is greater seem perfectly content to ignore how KB placed 4th behind EK in Chicago’14, or a distant 3rd behind EK in London ‘16, or a distant 6th behind EK in London ‘18. It can only work both ways.
Another thing people like to do is to act like the 5k, 10k and Marathon are three equally distinct events—they’re not. The 5k and 10k are very closely related, and excelling at both simultaneously is extremely common and has a lengthy historical precedent—Nurmi, Zátopek, Kuts, Viren, Yifter, Geb, Farah, and Cheptegei have all done it. It’s more accurate to classify the events as “5k/10k” and Marathon—two disciplines. Bekele had a better career in one, and Kipchoge in the other.
But Kipchoge’s marathon career is even greater than Bekele’s 5k/10k career. As we’ve both alluded to, there was a precedent for Bekele’s accomplishments, and someone will likely come along and replicate them again soon—maybe Cheptegei’s already begun doing so. Bekele took what Gebrselassie had done and did it a little better, just as El G did with Morceli, just as Rudisha did with Kipketer or Peter Snell. Kipchoge’s marathon career is totally unprecedented—as is his 20 year running career as a whole. He is the greatest distance runner of all time.
Eliud in each of his marathoning olympic cycles is on track to be the top three greatest marathoners of all time. People didn't talk about it much, I guess because it's Eliud and we've all been out of superlatives for a couple years now, but he just ran 2:02:40 in Tokyo. The guy has the #1, #3, and #4 fastest performances of all time. For good measure he has #13 and #22 as well. Excluding the exhibition runs, he has 12 performances at 2:05:00 or faster. The shortest possible time for building a career comparable to Eliud's is six years, running under 2:05 twice a year. That's just to be in the same ballpark.
Anyways, personally I think it's a bit foolish to relitigate what happened on the track in the 2000's. No amount of sub 2:03's can change where Eliud finished in those olympic games; and no amount of 2:10+ or DNF's can erase the majestic dominance of Bekele in that era. But the arrow of time remains ever pointed, and we are in a different time now. I think what makes Eliud most special is not just that he is the marathon GOAT, but that he will very likely remain that for the rest of time. Bekele's records have been shown to be beatable, and his championship dominance has been replicated. No one has put the two together the way he has yet, but in the next couple decades, it's very likely going to happen, a talent will rise up, claim both the 5/10 records, and win 3 or 4 olympic golds with world championship dominance a long the way. This is something that happens in the sport with generational regularity.
But Eliud has won four London marathons; he has won in Chicago, London, Berlin, and Tokyo. He has won two olympic golds, and has a third in his sights. Someone will definitely run faster than him, and the 2x olympic gold in the event is not an impossible achievement, it has historical precedent. But compiling eleven major wins, having a winning streak of ten of the most competitive marathons available; there is good reason to believe that this simply will not happen again.
Only time will tell, but I suspect that Eliud's marathon GOATness will prove impervious to the vicissitudes of passing years in a way that Bekele's will not.
Excellent post, and to quote another great marathoner, “You’re making my point!”
There are a few arguments everyone makes in Bekele’s favor that I view as logical fallacies. The most popular one is how Bekele beat Kipchoge in the ‘04 and ‘08 Olympics “when they were both in their primes,” and I believe this is flawed on two levels. First, both athletes have been active for 5 Olympic cycles now, and here are the results:
2016 - Kipchoge Marathon gold; Bekele Did Not Compete
2021 - Kipchoge Marathon gold; Bekele Did Not Compete
It’s clear to me that Kipchoge has had the better Olympic career. What Bekele accomplished in the 2000s was amazing, but there’s been a historical precedent for it—in fact you could say he fell short of what Viren and Farah achieved with their “double-doubles,” albeit in a more competitive era. There is no precedent for Kipchoge’s Olympic career. As I stated 9 months ago, his winning gold in ‘21 after taking bronze at 5k in ‘04 (and WC gold in ‘03) would be like if Bikila had been dueling Zátopek for the 5k gold in 1948, or Shorter had placed runner-up to Halberg at 5k in 1960. His longevity is bonkers.
The second, rather aggravating fallacy in this argument is that Kipchoge was not “in his prime” on the track in the 2000s; clearly Kipchoge’s prime has come as a marathoner in his 30s. It’s almost as if people think Kipchoge’s career should be appraised as “Marathon career minus track career,” when obviously to have both is a plus.
And even with Bekele’s two great marathons, I believe Kipchoge’s track career was clearly better than Bekele’s marathon career. WC 5k gold over El G & Bekele, Olympic 5k silver & bronze, WC 5k silver in ‘07, and 12:46 when that made him the 4th fastest ever, easily trumps two wins at Berlin in near-WR times, in my opinion.
Just as I don’t think Kipchoge’s track career should work against him, I don’t think Bekele’s marathon career subtracts from his greatness either, only adds to it. But the same people who point to Kipchoge’s track defeats as proof that Bekele is greater seem perfectly content to ignore how KB placed 4th behind EK in Chicago’14, or a distant 3rd behind EK in London ‘16, or a distant 6th behind EK in London ‘18. It can only work both ways.
Another thing people like to do is to act like the 5k, 10k and Marathon are three equally distinct events—they’re not. The 5k and 10k are very closely related, and excelling at both simultaneously is extremely common and has a lengthy historical precedent—Nurmi, Zátopek, Kuts, Viren, Yifter, Geb, Farah, and Cheptegei have all done it. It’s more accurate to classify the events as “5k/10k” and Marathon—two disciplines. Bekele had a better career in one, and Kipchoge in the other.
But Kipchoge’s marathon career is even greater than Bekele’s 5k/10k career. As we’ve both alluded to, there was a precedent for Bekele’s accomplishments, and someone will likely come along and replicate them again soon—maybe Cheptegei’s already begun doing so. Bekele took what Gebrselassie had done and did it a little better, just as El G did with Morceli, just as Rudisha did with Kipketer or Peter Snell. Kipchoge’s marathon career is totally unprecedented—as is his 20 year running career as a whole. He is the greatest distance runner of all time.
I’m 100% with you. As you point out, it really comes down to assessing Bekele as a 5/10/xc champion v Kipchoge as a marathon champ and Bekele as a marathoner vs Kipchoge as a 5/10/xc runner. It’s close, but I think Kipchoge wins both assessments as you do. What Kipchoge has done in the marathon is far more unprecedented than Bekele’s achievements in the 5/10. Also, Kipchoge is not done yet and Bekele is over done. What if Kipchoge wins all 7 majors and a 3rd Olympics? If this happens his marathon achievements will be the greatest running achievements of all time by a long measure, greater than Bolt, and it will overwhelm the achievements of Bekele and everybody else.
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