Chicago Women's Race

Lot's of "know nothings" on this board. If any of you think Tomescu has ever run a mixed marathon without a male pacer/ escort you are idiots.

trackhead wrote:

For the purpose of this Rule the following shall be considered as

assistance, and are therefore not allowed:

(c) pacing in races by persons not participating in the race, by

athletes or walkers lapped or about to be lapped or by any kind

of technical device.

Did you read what you posted?

..... wrote:

trackhead wrote:

For the purpose of this Rule the following shall be considered as

assistance, and are therefore not allowed:

(c) pacing in races by persons not participating in the race, by

athletes or walkers lapped or about to be lapped or by any kind

of technical device.

Did you read what you posted?

I think Clint was technically "participating" in the race, although he sure as heck wasn't competing.

he is not in the same race!

just as Deena was not in his!

Check the awards structure- there are men's and women's awards. I don't beleive there is an award for first overall.

track-fan wrote:

he is not in the same race!

just as Deena was not in his!

Check the awards structure- there are men's and women's awards. I don't beleive there is an award for first overall.

You could argue he WAS in the same race as Deena as he wasn't about to leave her side. I'm sure he was paid to pace/escort her so he sure wasn't paying attention to any male runners. Just Deena and the other women he was telling Deena about/keeping tabs on when he looked behind them throughout the race.

How many b*******s did Verran lose when Deena missed the record?

Quite a few bucks.

American Pride wrote:

God Forbid a CLEAN American win on US soil. I figure with Dita's drug use it's pretty even that Deena should have a pacer. I'm sick and tired of these Russians and Romanians cleaning up on our roads when we all know they are dirty!

What kind of bulls***, xenophobic, and ignorant comment is that? I have absolutely no information of the "clean-ness" of either of these athletes, so why would you judge Dita to be the dirty one? Because she's Romanian? I happen to respect what I know of each athlete, but looking at each of their career progressions and understanding the world of professional sports, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if either athlete was using drugs.

That being said, I'm not sure what I think of the pacing issue. But until the rules are changed, I have an issue with any of the athletes being judged unethical.

Someone brought up the Khalid Skah/Richard Chelimo issue. That's a whole different story, as Boutayeb (a teammate/countryman of Skah's) was a lapped runner, and actually IMPEDED Chelimo by getting in front of him and slowing down.

What is the same in these situations is that it's hard to blame the athlete who benefitted from the "aid." Do we know that Skah wanted/asked Boutayeb to help him? Do we know that Deena wanted this aid from Verran at the end of the race? And anything before the last couple of miles was nothing unusual at all. She ran much of the race in the front of the pack and she seemed to always grab her own bottles.

As the rules haven't changed, Deena was receiving the same kind of assistance that top women have been receiving in mixed races for a long time. So complain to someone to change the rules, and until they are, quit your b****in'.

BDG

Is there a break down of top ten men and womens prize money?

I think we should ask the IAAF to widen the lanes of a track from 1.22m to 2.44. This way we can have a man run with each of the women in the sprints. Races 800 and over shouldn't be a problem.

There may not be a specific rule in the books about what happened today, but I believe it doesn't look good for the sport.

Women have had (and still have) great barriers to break to have true equality in this world. This only adds doubts to their great athletic achievements.

Deena, Paula, and the greats of this young sport are all capable of winning without men getting in their way.

The old farts of the IOC wouldn't allow women to run distances longer then 800 m because they throught they weren't capable. Were ever they are now (heaven or hell - hopeuflly hell) they are hanging out at the bar smoking their cigars and laughing their asses off.

The problem is that it's very different to have a mens 800m and a womens 800m, as opposed to a mens marathon AND a womens marathon. At least for big city races. Of course, London gets the job done, but still -- it's a bit mroe work.

I agree. In the past, women achieved success on the track and on the roads DESPITE men. Now they are achieving success BECAUSE of men. What a slap in the face to the women that came before them and broke down barriers.

genderequity wrote:

No rule, per se, was broken today but I thought it was one of the poorest displays of fairplay and sportsmanship I have seen in a roadrace. Very unethical.

You say you have no problem with Kastor being paced, but you do have a problem with the pacer giving her information and encouragement. The exact same information and encouragement could have, and probably was, given to her by people standing alongside the course. What's the difference?

I doubt that any rules will be cahnged -- what Ben Jipcho and Kip Keino did in Mexico City was perfectly legal then just as it is now.

I didn't see the race, so I can only comment on what I've seen described here.

Although I was as moved as the next runner by what Deena did in the Olympic marathon, I'll admit to feeling troubled here. What is not being said, in so many words, is that when we talk about pacing and/or rabbiting, what we're usually thinking about are the following two scenarios:

*) IN A MEN'S TRACK RACE: very strong runner ("rabbit") runs first half of the race at a pace that he plainly can't sustain in order to pace superior runner to WR; very strong runner drops out or falls way back after the halfway point

*) IN A WOMEN'S ROAD RACE: strong male runner--clearly superior to a very strong female runner--accompanies that female runner for most of the race to keep her on pace....and then veers away and lets her take it on in.

What both of these scenarios allow for is a pacer/rabbit doing SOME of the work, early on, so that the paced/rabbited competitor is then freed to push forward alone into No Man's Land as the finish line approaches.

What the Deena/Verran situation has made clear is that a crucial step has been taken past the second scenario. In a word, the paced female runner isn't supposed to fall apart as Deena fell apart, and the male pacer isn't supposed to have to carry the kind of spiritual/psychological weight that Verran found himself suddenly required to carry. Surely neither he nor Deena anticipated today's scenario; surely both of them simply made the best of a rapidly deteriorating situation.

What that situation did, though, is reveal a previously un-thought-through problem with the whole second scenario, in which a superior runner paces in a slightly inferior (because female: slightly slower PR) runner. If it's not illegal--and I trust Trackhead's evidence, which is keeping the discussion honest--then it IS problematic.

People on letsrun might cut Verran, and Deena, a bit of a break. If Deena hadn't fallen apart, if she'd stayed strong and maintained her margin of victory--instead of being effectively dragged to the finish line by her pacer--the problem might not have been revealed in its full glory and we might not all be grumbling.

I say: rethink the policy. But don't slam Deena and Clint if, in fact, they were playing by the rules.

"the male pacer isn't supposed to have to carry the kind of spiritual/psychological weight that Verran found himself suddenly required to carry"

This is what I have a problem with. I get what you're saying here, but are you telling me you have more of an issue with this than the actual physical benefit she (and plenty of other women in this and other races) received from running? In other words, are you saying that Verran's "spiritual/psychological" aid was more beneficial than her running in a group with runners ahead of her at times?

Because as others have said, plenty of people (in the race or along the course) could have told her how far behind Dita was. In track races in big meets, runners are often checking the scoreboard video monitor to check out where trailing runners are (without having to turn around). In the Tour de France, they're in almost constant communication with their teams and know exactly how far ahead or behind competitors are.

"Surely neither he nor Deena anticipated today's scenario"

On the other hand, I don't think I agree with this statement. Why couldn't they have anticipated this happening? As a rule, things don't go as planned in marathons. There was a very good chance that going in with an aggressive race plan, things could fall apart. So, I don't see why they wouldn't have considered this.

And who knows exactly what all the relationships, payments, communications, etc. were between all parties: Deena, Dita, Verran and the Hanson's guys, Pinkowski, sponsors, etc.

So again, until the pacing rules are changed, I don't see anything wrong with what I saw today. If Deena's competing for course records, American records, World records, etc., than she should be able to do what Paula Radcliffe and others have done, which is use pacers/escorts, etc. within the rules. To not do that is putting herself at a disadvantage.

BDG

a whole other can of worms:

Prior to Deena & Paula could anyone tell me how many (if any) "escorts" or "pacesetters" the top african women marathon runners have had in the top marathons?

track-fan wrote:

a whole other can of worms:

Prior to Deena & Paula could anyone tell me how many (if any) "escorts" or "pacesetters" the top african women marathon runners have had in the top marathons?

Tegla Laroupe had a whored of Kenyan men pacing her in Berlin a few years ago when she was trying to break 2:20.

Next question.

..... wrote:

Deena's last mile was over 7 minutes!

Baloney!!!

Her last 1.2 miles was 7 minutes. Roughly 5:45-5:50 pace.