We've closed this thread to new posts. Please discuss this topic in a new thread given the fact she just won the race outright in 2023. Does that mean that the 2022 cheating allegations definitely have no merit?
As far as all of the posts here about charging the watch for such a short amount of time - I think that's credible. I've let my watch get down to no battery right before a run. I put it on a charger for 15 minutes and it's a champ for quite a while. At least 2 hours, but I've not tested it past that.
the heart rate isn't a steady 120 though, I don't know why people are saying this. maybe they mean a 120 average? it is frequently in the 140s. look at the data. every time she goes up a significant incline, her heart rate goes up, as you would expect.
she doesn't even touch 130, let alone 140, until 2 hours into the climb. in those first 2 hours, the grade of the hills is consistently 5%-10% with the odd 12%. In the final hour of the climb, the grade is 8%-11%. even when she starts booking it in the final couple miles of the race, her HR still doesn't go above 146! it's mind-blowing. and i still think it might be legit. it's just the past allegations and the potential sprinter van that are leaving me wondering.
I am stuck on this too. I read Derek's review but I've been using HRM since my 20s. It does not seem humanly possible to be climbing for 2 hrs from 5000 to 8300 feet elevation, at the end of 100 miles in insane heat and maintain a 120 HR. Just running in the heat alone, time alone, altitude alone, and climbing alone all cause the HR to increase with what feels like the same effort. All of these factors were in play here. In addition, another post said her husband had told her she was close to breaking the course record so she started digging in. That just doesn't match up to a 120 HR.
Her position with iFit until recently was live classes, in part. Many of which were interval training as well as lots of high level incline training (up to 40%). When you are leading 3+ hours a day of high level incline training while talking and encouraging others, you are building up that aerobic stamina. Her heart-rate is likely very reasonable to her given fitness level in that area.
3+ hours a day of Badwater-specific training is nothing out of the ordinary for Badwater runners, definitely nothing that's going to set you apart from the field.
I just re-read Derek's "investigation" a few things stood out.
1. Her husband claims he got in her ear about making the final climb from Lone Pine to set the record but they also have a text message from Wednesday morning at 8:20 or 9:20 a.m. (tough to tell from the image on the site) with bad news, that the keys were locked in the van. Per the receipt, it looks like Las Vegas. This was more than 9 or 10 hours after she finished the race. How did he have the conversation? When was he planning on leaving Las Vegas? There was no communication about the race? How did he talk to her during the race? The race, for Ashley, was Monday night at 11 p.m. until Tuesday night at just after 11 p.m. The story about him motivating her, about him not possibly being there in a sprinter van ... it doesn't add up. It's pretty easy to see those dots don't connect and it undermines the credibility of Derek's report. Either he's trying to spin, or he's just not very good at what he's doing with this one.
2. Offering a photo of somebody else holding a drink and saying it made it in a cooler from Stovepipe to Panamint with cubes intact is not only ridiculous as some form of proof that she ran the race, but it's very highly unlikely. Anybody who's been there knows how often you open up coolers and how warm it is. Ice melts. There's no way ice in a drink is going to last, and there's no way they'd get a drink in Stovepipe just to hold it for 50K. And not touch that cooler for that whole stretch, up Towne Pass and then down into the hottest part of the race.
3. Derek suspects Ashley and another runner crossed 395 in Lone Pine in different spots. Anybody who knows the first thing about this race knows that didn't happen. Just writing that should require an all-caps disclaimer at the top, saying he doesn't know or understand anything about Badwater other than it's hot and there's hills and it's 135 miles.
4. Derek's argument about the stride length and the GPS is essentially that the GPS worked perfectly until she hit the finish line, and then it was completely imperfect. Makes sense.
5. Derek never addressed why there were only 5500 data points in her file.
6. Derek decided to take the role of investigator, defense attorney and judge. Hardly impartial. And we know from Derek's history that he picks a side and sticks to it hard.
His report is smoke and mirrors, it's not credible and it proves nothing.
1. It wasn't Ashley's husband, it was Amber's. He wasn't in Las Vegas; Bracken's Tech and Tire is in St. George Utah, and Las Vegas is where they stopped for gas. And what makes you think the conversation was in person?
2. There are no ice cubes in Frazil drinks; they are frozen slushies.
3. She ran on the right side of the road on 395 and then crossed just before a left hand turn, at about 7pm in the middle of the week. Why didn't that happen?
4. You don't have to take Derek's word for the GPS jumping around, it's right there on the map. And this isn't exactly a new and unknown phenomenon.
I won't go on those things stood out, and then I stopped caring. You're having trouble connecting the dots because you don't understand where the dots are.
1. Was the husband on the crew? If the conversation wasn't in person, then surely Derek with all his evidence from his no-stones-unturned investigation would have showed that the conversation happened. One argument Derek made is that Ashley pushed hard because of her husband's motivating speech and none of the other runners were motivated. That's nonsense, every Badwater runner is insanely motivated. You don't get there otherwise. But still, was the conversation in person? Over the phone? Via text?
If I'm connecting the dots you say should be so easy to connect, then it's your (and Derek's) argument that Ashley ran the hill because one of her crew member's husband was in Utah? Strong argument. Let me ask you this, though — why would she rent a Sprinter van intended to show up in Lone Pine after the race? Seems kind of odd for post-race with gas prices so low nowadays.
2. Whatever a Frazil is, a slushy from Stovepipe isn't going to make it Panamint without melting. And that also has zero bearing on whether or not Ashley legitimately ran Father Crowley or Portal Road.
3. Derek insinuated that different runners crossed 395 in different spots. Him saying that just goes to show he's completely unqualified to present himself as any kind of an expert on Badwater.
4. There's no real dots to connect. There's no smoking gun. But the proof is nonsense like "she's a fast marathoner" and "the slushy isn't melted" and "my nameless GPS expert couldn't find a smoking gun" and "I talked to Ashley and in my opinion her story seems plausible"
I guess it's possible she's the greatest hill runner to ever live and that, compounded with an unworldly gain in fitness during the first half of 2022, resulted in the most legendary, unexpected performance in the history of ultra running. But it's also possible she cheated. Who knows? The Supreme Authority Derek Murphy found her not guilty, but remember, a jury of 12 found Orenthal James Simpson not guilty.
I am stuck on this too. I read Derek's review but I've been using HRM since my 20s. It does not seem humanly possible to be climbing for 2 hrs from 5000 to 8300 feet elevation, at the end of 100 miles in insane heat and maintain a 120 HR. Just running in the heat alone, time alone, altitude alone, and climbing alone all cause the HR to increase with what feels like the same effort. All of these factors were in play here. In addition, another post said her husband had told her she was close to breaking the course record so she started digging in. That just doesn't match up to a 120 HR.
I just re-read Derek's "investigation" a few things stood out.
1. Her husband claims he got in her ear about making the final climb from Lone Pine to set the record but they also have a text message from Wednesday morning at 8:20 or 9:20 a.m. (tough to tell from the image on the site) with bad news, that the keys were locked in the van. Per the receipt, it looks like Las Vegas. This was more than 9 or 10 hours after she finished the race. How did he have the conversation? When was he planning on leaving Las Vegas? There was no communication about the race? How did he talk to her during the race? The race, for Ashley, was Monday night at 11 p.m. until Tuesday night at just after 11 p.m. The story about him motivating her, about him not possibly being there in a sprinter van ... it doesn't add up. It's pretty easy to see those dots don't connect and it undermines the credibility of Derek's report. Either he's trying to spin, or he's just not very good at what he's doing with this one.
2. Offering a photo of somebody else holding a drink and saying it made it in a cooler from Stovepipe to Panamint with cubes intact is not only ridiculous as some form of proof that she ran the race, but it's very highly unlikely. Anybody who's been there knows how often you open up coolers and how warm it is. Ice melts. There's no way ice in a drink is going to last, and there's no way they'd get a drink in Stovepipe just to hold it for 50K. And not touch that cooler for that whole stretch, up Towne Pass and then down into the hottest part of the race.
3. Derek suspects Ashley and another runner crossed 395 in Lone Pine in different spots. Anybody who knows the first thing about this race knows that didn't happen. Just writing that should require an all-caps disclaimer at the top, saying he doesn't know or understand anything about Badwater other than it's hot and there's hills and it's 135 miles.
4. Derek's argument about the stride length and the GPS is essentially that the GPS worked perfectly until she hit the finish line, and then it was completely imperfect. Makes sense.
5. Derek never addressed why there were only 5500 data points in her file.
6. Derek decided to take the role of investigator, defense attorney and judge. Hardly impartial. And we know from Derek's history that he picks a side and sticks to it hard.
His report is smoke and mirrors, it's not credible and it proves nothing.
1. No. Husband was there the entire time. Pacers husband was not. Both names Mark, so maybe that’s where there is confusion.
2. Literally grasping at straws. The Frazil is in no way proof of cheating.
3. No. I never said that and I don’t know where you get that from.
4. This isn’t even an argument. It’s clear you didn’t look at the individual splits. The last split after the finish caused the average stride length to be inflated. Try turning in your GPS and stand roughly in the same spot for 5 minutes. It will jump around. As an example, at HOTS. I took a break for an hour and my Garmin added about a mile.
5. Yes, this was addressed. That file referenced with limited data points was extracted from the export course menu and then exported as .GPX. Invalid for analysis. I extracted a .GPX in the same manner from a top 10 runner and had the same anomalies.
Your other comments are a joke. If there was real evidence that she cheated, no one has come forward. And none of the runners or crew who were there believe she couldn’t have run this are willing to come forward.
Ahh--I see. I guess I've never stood around without pausing or stopping my watch, so I didn't know this occurred. I know that certain GPS devices--particularly when using apps like Strava on an iPhone while training--will inflate the distance, as the signal bounces back and forth along the trail/road. But I haven't known the tech to mishandle idling or walking--that's news to me.
1. It wasn't Ashley's husband, it was Amber's. He wasn't in Las Vegas; Bracken's Tech and Tire is in St. George Utah, and Las Vegas is where they stopped for gas. And what makes you think the conversation was in person?
2. There are no ice cubes in Frazil drinks; they are frozen slushies.
3. She ran on the right side of the road on 395 and then crossed just before a left hand turn, at about 7pm in the middle of the week. Why didn't that happen?
4. You don't have to take Derek's word for the GPS jumping around, it's right there on the map. And this isn't exactly a new and unknown phenomenon.
I won't go on those things stood out, and then I stopped caring. You're having trouble connecting the dots because you don't understand where the dots are.
1. Was the husband on the crew? If the conversation wasn't in person, then surely Derek with all his evidence from his no-stones-unturned investigation would have showed that the conversation happened. One argument Derek made is that Ashley pushed hard because of her husband's motivating speech and none of the other runners were motivated. That's nonsense, every Badwater runner is insanely motivated. You don't get there otherwise. But still, was the conversation in person? Over the phone? Via text?
If I'm connecting the dots you say should be so easy to connect, then it's your (and Derek's) argument that Ashley ran the hill because one of her crew member's husband was in Utah? Strong argument. Let me ask you this, though — why would she rent a Sprinter van intended to show up in Lone Pine after the race? Seems kind of odd for post-race with gas prices so low nowadays.
2. Whatever a Frazil is, a slushy from Stovepipe isn't going to make it Panamint without melting. And that also has zero bearing on whether or not Ashley legitimately ran Father Crowley or Portal Road.
3. Derek insinuated that different runners crossed 395 in different spots. Him saying that just goes to show he's completely unqualified to present himself as any kind of an expert on Badwater.
4. There's no real dots to connect. There's no smoking gun. But the proof is nonsense like "she's a fast marathoner" and "the slushy isn't melted" and "my nameless GPS expert couldn't find a smoking gun" and "I talked to Ashley and in my opinion her story seems plausible"
I guess it's possible she's the greatest hill runner to ever live and that, compounded with an unworldly gain in fitness during the first half of 2022, resulted in the most legendary, unexpected performance in the history of ultra running. But it's also possible she cheated. Who knows? The Supreme Authority Derek Murphy found her not guilty, but remember, a jury of 12 found Orenthal James Simpson not guilty.
This is making my head spin. Ashley's husband was part of her crew! He paced her on the final miles of the race. They were power-hiking/running together into the finish. At this point, her other crew members were traveling beside them in the crew minivan. This was also noted by the documentary guy.
The question is whether there was a second, unauthorized vehicle (sprinter van) with a crew member's husband driving it. This sprinter was reportedly seen on Whitney Portal and earlier, around miles 78-80 of the course. Could this have happened? Imo, sure. Harvey was more than two hours behind them by the time Ashley was on Whitney Portal. There are places for the sprinter to turn around, pull out, etc. In fact, the sprinter van would have had to have lurked for Harvey to observe it two hours later when he reached Whitney Portal. But if Harvey no longer believes that to be a thing, I don't want to belabor that point. It was just quoted in Derek's analysis.
One question I have. I believe I have read that a few folks (Harvey Lewis?) state that they looked up ahead quite a few times later in the race and should have seen Ashley but didn't - which was a red flag to them. Harvey was inside of about a mile of Ashley all the way until close to Darwin/mile 90. They were literally together at a couple aid stations where she left as he arrived. My question is what made him say that? For like 15 hours she was right there, so he would have seen her slowly but surely run ahead into the distance as they approached Darwin. And then she was ahead by about 2 miles from there through Keeler. Is he saying he should have seen her because she wasn't that far away for all that time but for long stretches she wasn't actually there on the road running?
I just re-read Derek's "investigation" a few things stood out.
1. Her husband claims he got in her ear about making the final climb from Lone Pine to set the record but they also have a text message from Wednesday morning at 8:20 or 9:20 a.m. (tough to tell from the image on the site) with bad news, that the keys were locked in the van. Per the receipt, it looks like Las Vegas. This was more than 9 or 10 hours after she finished the race. How did he have the conversation? When was he planning on leaving Las Vegas? There was no communication about the race? How did he talk to her during the race? The race, for Ashley, was Monday night at 11 p.m. until Tuesday night at just after 11 p.m. The story about him motivating her, about him not possibly being there in a sprinter van ... it doesn't add up. It's pretty easy to see those dots don't connect and it undermines the credibility of Derek's report. Either he's trying to spin, or he's just not very good at what he's doing with this one.
2. Offering a photo of somebody else holding a drink and saying it made it in a cooler from Stovepipe to Panamint with cubes intact is not only ridiculous as some form of proof that she ran the race, but it's very highly unlikely. Anybody who's been there knows how often you open up coolers and how warm it is. Ice melts. There's no way ice in a drink is going to last, and there's no way they'd get a drink in Stovepipe just to hold it for 50K. And not touch that cooler for that whole stretch, up Towne Pass and then down into the hottest part of the race.
3. Derek suspects Ashley and another runner crossed 395 in Lone Pine in different spots. Anybody who knows the first thing about this race knows that didn't happen. Just writing that should require an all-caps disclaimer at the top, saying he doesn't know or understand anything about Badwater other than it's hot and there's hills and it's 135 miles.
4. Derek's argument about the stride length and the GPS is essentially that the GPS worked perfectly until she hit the finish line, and then it was completely imperfect. Makes sense.
5. Derek never addressed why there were only 5500 data points in her file.
6. Derek decided to take the role of investigator, defense attorney and judge. Hardly impartial. And we know from Derek's history that he picks a side and sticks to it hard.
His report is smoke and mirrors, it's not credible and it proves nothing.
1. No. Husband was there the entire time. Pacers husband was not. Both names Mark, so maybe that’s where there is confusion.
2. Literally grasping at straws. The Frazil is in no way proof of cheating.
3. No. I never said that and I don’t know where you get that from.
4. This isn’t even an argument. It’s clear you didn’t look at the individual splits. The last split after the finish caused the average stride length to be inflated. Try turning in your GPS and stand roughly in the same spot for 5 minutes. It will jump around. As an example, at HOTS. I took a break for an hour and my Garmin added about a mile.
5. Yes, this was addressed. That file referenced with limited data points was extracted from the export course menu and then exported as .GPX. Invalid for analysis. I extracted a .GPX in the same manner from a top 10 runner and had the same anomalies.
Your other comments are a joke. If there was real evidence that she cheated, no one has come forward. And none of the runners or crew who were there believe she couldn’t have run this are willing to come forward.
Oh I'm sure there are dozens of Badwater runners who would give you their opinions, obviously not on the record. I'm sure you understand the dynamics of the situation.
The Frazil means nothing. Not even sure why you included it in your article. But you saying it might have made it from Stovepipe to Panamint in slushy form just shows you don't understand the course or the environment. All you have is your analysis of the Garmin files, as if data analysis of a Garmin file can prove that she ran the course. Anybody who understands the race and isn't associated with iFit knows what happened. You speak as if you're the supreme authority on what happened and after what you were able to find, as well as what Ashley told you, you've issued your verdict.
I asked you in a different post but you didn't respond ... do you have data from any other top-10 runners? How long did they stop at Panamint?
1. Was the husband on the crew? If the conversation wasn't in person, then surely Derek with all his evidence from his no-stones-unturned investigation would have showed that the conversation happened. One argument Derek made is that Ashley pushed hard because of her husband's motivating speech and none of the other runners were motivated. That's nonsense, every Badwater runner is insanely motivated. You don't get there otherwise. But still, was the conversation in person? Over the phone? Via text?
If I'm connecting the dots you say should be so easy to connect, then it's your (and Derek's) argument that Ashley ran the hill because one of her crew member's husband was in Utah? Strong argument. Let me ask you this, though — why would she rent a Sprinter van intended to show up in Lone Pine after the race? Seems kind of odd for post-race with gas prices so low nowadays.
2. Whatever a Frazil is, a slushy from Stovepipe isn't going to make it Panamint without melting. And that also has zero bearing on whether or not Ashley legitimately ran Father Crowley or Portal Road.
3. Derek insinuated that different runners crossed 395 in different spots. Him saying that just goes to show he's completely unqualified to present himself as any kind of an expert on Badwater.
4. There's no real dots to connect. There's no smoking gun. But the proof is nonsense like "she's a fast marathoner" and "the slushy isn't melted" and "my nameless GPS expert couldn't find a smoking gun" and "I talked to Ashley and in my opinion her story seems plausible"
I guess it's possible she's the greatest hill runner to ever live and that, compounded with an unworldly gain in fitness during the first half of 2022, resulted in the most legendary, unexpected performance in the history of ultra running. But it's also possible she cheated. Who knows? The Supreme Authority Derek Murphy found her not guilty, but remember, a jury of 12 found Orenthal James Simpson not guilty.
This is making my head spin. Ashley's husband was part of her crew! He paced her on the final miles of the race. They were power-hiking/running together into the finish. At this point, her other crew members were traveling beside them in the crew minivan. This was also noted by the documentary guy.
The question is whether there was a second, unauthorized vehicle (sprinter van) with a crew member's husband driving it. This sprinter was reportedly seen on Whitney Portal and earlier, around miles 78-80 of the course. Could this have happened? Imo, sure. Harvey was more than two hours behind them by the time Ashley was on Whitney Portal. There are places for the sprinter to turn around, pull out, etc. In fact, the sprinter van would have had to have lurked for Harvey to observe it two hours later when he reached Whitney Portal. But if Harvey no longer believes that to be a thing, I don't want to belabor that point. It was just quoted in Derek's analysis.
Fair enough. I got my Marks confused. Quite the gain she made on Harvey going up Father Crowley, though, especially when he was ahead of his race-winning pace from 2021 on a hotter day. Between that and Portal Road, she's either the best hill climber in the history of ultra running, or something funny happened. I can't prove there was a sprinter van that she hopped into (nor can I prove that she hopped into her crew van with a body-double running for her) so maybe she really is just the best hill climber ever.
It’s interesting given past cheating I think it calls for folks to be more skeptical of later performances. You don’t get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Looking into how someone can cheat, in race like this she still could have cheated on a single section but completed 90% of the course
The fitness gains don’t make sense, heat pills everyone down and the opportunities for unassisted aid are very accessible.
Like any good bank heist, it takes practice. Could she have switched garmins and took 5 miles off a hill climb. Sure. It’s possible.
Strides are determined based on readings from an accelerometer in the watch only. This is why you can fake steps by simply moving your wrist in a rhythmic fashion (bouncing your wrist hand on your knee will sometimes work) or lose steps by doing something with your wrist wearing hand that isn’t interpreted as a running motion. Strides can definitely be faked.
Wrist readings for stride length are absolutely garbage. At least when I've used my GPS watches (Suuntos) on the treadmill. My wrist movement isn't correlated with actual speed.
the heart rate isn't a steady 120 though, I don't know why people are saying this. maybe they mean a 120 average? it is frequently in the 140s. look at the data. every time she goes up a significant incline, her heart rate goes up, as you would expect.
she doesn't even touch 130, let alone 140, until 2 hours into the climb. in those first 2 hours, the grade of the hills is consistently 5%-10% with the odd 12%. In the final hour of the climb, the grade is 8%-11%. even when she starts booking it in the final couple miles of the race, her HR still doesn't go above 146! it's mind-blowing. and i still think it might be legit. it's just the past allegations and the potential sprinter van that are leaving me wondering.
What's mind blowing about that? What do you think it should be? Sounds reasonable to me for what I'd imagine my efforts would be on something that long. When I was using a HR monitor and with an actual max HR of 181, I rarely hit 130 on easy training runs, which is probably the low effort I'd need to keep for such a long effort.
I don’t want to investigate in this thread. But, Yes I looked at other top 10 runners. I have .GPX for 5 of the top 10. All of their data is unique. There is no clear pattern of what the data ‘should’ look like. You could look at any of their data and find supposed ‘suspicious’ sections of data if you were convinced they cheated going in.
The runners that ‘know’ what happened should put their reputations on the line and come forward if they are so convinced. But when nothing was verifiable or when their claims were refuted, they fell silent.
This will be it for me here, I’m coming dangerously close to investigating this in public. If anyone has genuine questions, I’m reachable via email.
she doesn't even touch 130, let alone 140, until 2 hours into the climb. in those first 2 hours, the grade of the hills is consistently 5%-10% with the odd 12%. In the final hour of the climb, the grade is 8%-11%. even when she starts booking it in the final couple miles of the race, her HR still doesn't go above 146! it's mind-blowing. and i still think it might be legit. it's just the past allegations and the potential sprinter van that are leaving me wondering.
What's mind blowing about that? What do you think it should be? Sounds reasonable to me for what I'd imagine my efforts would be on something that long. When I was using a HR monitor and with an actual max HR of 181, I rarely hit 130 on easy training runs, which is probably the low effort I'd need to keep for such a long effort.
I don’t want to investigate in this thread. But, Yes I looked at other top 10 runners. I have .GPX for 5 of the top 10. All of their data is unique. There is no clear pattern of what the data ‘should’ look like. You could look at any of their data and find supposed ‘suspicious’ sections of data if you were convinced they cheated going in.
The runners that ‘know’ what happened should put their reputations on the line and come forward if they are so convinced. But when nothing was verifiable or when their claims were refuted, they fell silent.
This will be it for me here, I’m coming dangerously close to investigating this in public. If anyone has genuine questions, I’m reachable via email.
All I asked about the top 10 (twice) was what their stop times in Panamint were.
The runners that should put their reputations on the line, per Sir Derek Murphy, could face blackballing from the race. Pretty arrogant on your part that you think you can dictate what actions others must take to challenge what you say, and how you think your word is the authority.
And rich, to say the least, that you're getting upset and threatening because somebody is questioning how straightforward and pure your methods have. That's your trick.
My easy runs are all on trails with substantial climbing. Your talking a race that is how many hours long? People are doing 5K to marathon efforts/HRs.