We've closed this thread to new posts. Please discuss this topic in a new thread given the fact she just won the race outright in 2023. Does that mean that the 2022 cheating allegations definitely have no merit?
Hi. She never had to ‘walk me through’ the data. We never talked specifics related to the file.
Regarding the increased stride length, if the GPS shows a longer distance than you actually run it will show an inflated stride length. This was the case here. She was past the finish, and the GPS track jumped around.
There’s no way some Instagram soccer mom can pull this off. I’m not buying any of this.
She's not just an Instagram soccer mom. She's been running fast races for years. She's done like a gazillion marathons in the 2:30s and 2:40s, sometimes on back to back weekends.
She has a faster marathon PR than past men's champion Harvey Lewis, who as a 46 year old schoolteacher is still one of the top guys at these races.
I wish people would study that list of races more closely. When I heard other Badwater runners had reported suspicious behavior and she had tried to claim a victory in a previous race even after she knew she hadn't legitimately won, I was all for the possibility she cheated at Badwater. But the more I looked into the GPS data and heart rate data and her past history, and a very deep analysis into the race splits, the more I became convinced it was possible.
A bunch of people's arguments were some flavor of 'she can't be faster than Scott Jurek or Harvey Lewis'. Well her marathon PRs are. And her marathon PRs are faster than Camille Heron, whose 100-mile and 24-hour PRs are faster than theirs too. But most importantly, note that she's run something like 100 marathons...and notice the close proximity of a lot of them. I think she has a super underappreciated (by those unfamiliar with her) world class aerobic engine. I would encourage people to think of her more like Mike Wardian, who races with a super high frequency. One of my better friends is a sub 2:40 marathoner and he runs about 25 miles a week. He spends many many hours a week on his bike.
yes, her racing volume is certainly seeming to work in her favor. taking a look at her final climb compared to second place finisher Ivan, she is incredibly steady. now, Ivan's run a 100-miler in 14 hours and change, but it's likely that was a flat course (Berlin). also, Ashley may be better acclimated to heat than he is. (they may have slightly different HR zones given she's 9 years older than him, but you get the idea.)
This thread is going to be a great talking point for people arguing against the obligation to share data and cooperate with investigation. Ashley shared her data, cooperated with the investigation. Derek did a thorough investigation and did his part in attempting to dispel the suspicion. But this thread had taken on live of its own, and those who piled accusation on her with hardly any more basis than the firm faith that she's no good continue on. Nothing will convince them.
Couldn't agree more. This is a case study in how the psychos that obsess over the cheating threads on these forums can never get enough.
While I get that this is drawn out and beaten to death, I still don't understand how standing around/walking slowly would contribute to an increased stride length--it would be the opposite. So the "expert" explanation doesn't make sense and discredits his expertise. Or am I stupid?
you're not stupid you just haven't used or owned a phone or watch with slightly dodgy GPS functionality/signal. when you stand still it bounces around all over the place.
Hi. She never had to ‘walk me through’ the data. We never talked specifics related to the file.
Regarding the increased stride length, if the GPS shows a longer distance than you actually run it will show an inflated stride length. This was the case here. She was past the finish, and the GPS track jumped around.
Did you get data from other top-10 finishers? Which ones and what were the lengths of their stops at Panamint? What factors lead you to believe it was actually Ashley wearing the watch the entire time?
I'm really stuck on the 120 BPM HR for that non-stop, 2-hour, 3,000-ft climb of Whitney Portal. In the rest of her race, she routinely gets into 140-155 HR after climbing hills, like most humans. She'll stop or walk and her heart rate will come down. But Whitney Portal? Nope. No stops. No HR increases. Not until mile 131, after she passes the final checkpoint before the finish. Would love for others to take a look at that second link and tell me what they think of that data.
I am stuck on this too. I read Derek's review but I've been using HRM since my 20s. It does not seem humanly possible to be climbing for 2 hrs from 5000 to 8300 feet elevation, at the end of 100 miles in insane heat and maintain a 120 HR. Just running in the heat alone, time alone, altitude alone, and climbing alone all cause the HR to increase with what feels like the same effort. All of these factors were in play here. In addition, another post said her husband had told her she was close to breaking the course record so she started digging in. That just doesn't match up to a 120 HR.
I'm really stuck on the 120 BPM HR for that non-stop, 2-hour, 3,000-ft climb of Whitney Portal. In the rest of her race, she routinely gets into 140-155 HR after climbing hills, like most humans. She'll stop or walk and her heart rate will come down. But Whitney Portal? Nope. No stops. No HR increases. Not until mile 131, after she passes the final checkpoint before the finish. Would love for others to take a look at that second link and tell me what they think of that data.
I am stuck on this too. I read Derek's review but I've been using HRM since my 20s. It does not seem humanly possible to be climbing for 2 hrs from 5000 to 8300 feet elevation, at the end of 100 miles in insane heat and maintain a 120 HR. Just running in the heat alone, time alone, altitude alone, and climbing alone all cause the HR to increase with what feels like the same effort. All of these factors were in play here. In addition, another post said her husband had told her she was close to breaking the course record so she started digging in. That just doesn't match up to a 120 HR.
I just re-read Derek's "investigation" a few things stood out.
1. Her husband claims he got in her ear about making the final climb from Lone Pine to set the record but they also have a text message from Wednesday morning at 8:20 or 9:20 a.m. (tough to tell from the image on the site) with bad news, that the keys were locked in the van. Per the receipt, it looks like Las Vegas. This was more than 9 or 10 hours after she finished the race. How did he have the conversation? When was he planning on leaving Las Vegas? There was no communication about the race? How did he talk to her during the race? The race, for Ashley, was Monday night at 11 p.m. until Tuesday night at just after 11 p.m. The story about him motivating her, about him not possibly being there in a sprinter van ... it doesn't add up. It's pretty easy to see those dots don't connect and it undermines the credibility of Derek's report. Either he's trying to spin, or he's just not very good at what he's doing with this one.
2. Offering a photo of somebody else holding a drink and saying it made it in a cooler from Stovepipe to Panamint with cubes intact is not only ridiculous as some form of proof that she ran the race, but it's very highly unlikely. Anybody who's been there knows how often you open up coolers and how warm it is. Ice melts. There's no way ice in a drink is going to last, and there's no way they'd get a drink in Stovepipe just to hold it for 50K. And not touch that cooler for that whole stretch, up Towne Pass and then down into the hottest part of the race.
3. Derek suspects Ashley and another runner crossed 395 in Lone Pine in different spots. Anybody who knows the first thing about this race knows that didn't happen. Just writing that should require an all-caps disclaimer at the top, saying he doesn't know or understand anything about Badwater other than it's hot and there's hills and it's 135 miles.
4. Derek's argument about the stride length and the GPS is essentially that the GPS worked perfectly until she hit the finish line, and then it was completely imperfect. Makes sense.
5. Derek never addressed why there were only 5500 data points in her file.
6. Derek decided to take the role of investigator, defense attorney and judge. Hardly impartial. And we know from Derek's history that he picks a side and sticks to it hard.
His report is smoke and mirrors, it's not credible and it proves nothing.
1. It's not her husband Derek is talking about. It's Amber (blonde crew member)'s husband. The theory was that the sprinter van was being driven by Amber's husband. As for the fuel receipt, who the heck knows what that is. The brunette pacer returned to UT on Wednesday. Could have been hers. But Derek is saying he has proof it was the sprinter van's coming to CA from UT to join everybody after the race.
3. As she approached Lone Pine she and the brunette ("twin") pacer were on the right side of 395. The race officials let them know they could cross anywhere it was safe before turning left onto Whitney Portal, and then they did so (there are videos on BW's official channels of the top finishers coming into Lone Pine). I'm not sure why this was important (for Derek). The wonkiness of her GPS (right side of road situation) happens on Whitney Portal Road, anyway, not on 395. But the experts seem to think it's a GPS error.
4. Per Garmin Connect, average stride length doesn't account for pauses/idle time (but does account for walking). So that could explain it. It's just tough when you're looking at averages of a 115-mi file and an 18-mile file. First has way more walking than the second.
5. I think this was just a file formatting issue with downloading routes from Garmin Connect.
But to your overall point, I don't think this is really a shut case until someone clears up the sprinter van thing. If Harvey said he say a sprinter van "parked like a speed trap" on Whitney Portal...like...Whitney Portal is the part of her race that really defies human abilities imo. So, yeah.
I'm really stuck on the 120 BPM HR for that non-stop, 2-hour, 3,000-ft climb of Whitney Portal. In the rest of her race, she routinely gets into 140-155 HR after climbing hills, like most humans. She'll stop or walk and her heart rate will come down. But Whitney Portal? Nope. No stops. No HR increases. Not until mile 131, after she passes the final checkpoint before the finish. Would love for others to take a look at that second link and tell me what they think of that data.
I am stuck on this too. I read Derek's review but I've been using HRM since my 20s. It does not seem humanly possible to be climbing for 2 hrs from 5000 to 8300 feet elevation, at the end of 100 miles in insane heat and maintain a 120 HR. Just running in the heat alone, time alone, altitude alone, and climbing alone all cause the HR to increase with what feels like the same effort. All of these factors were in play here. In addition, another post said her husband had told her she was close to breaking the course record so she started digging in. That just doesn't match up to a 120 HR.
Her position with iFit until recently was live classes, in part. Many of which were interval training as well as lots of high level incline training (up to 40%). When you are leading 3+ hours a day of high level incline training while talking and encouraging others, you are building up that aerobic stamina. Her heart-rate is likely very reasonable to her given fitness level in that area.
the heart rate isn't a steady 120 though, I don't know why people are saying this. maybe they mean a 120 average? it is frequently in the 140s. look at the data. every time she goes up a significant incline, her heart rate goes up, as you would expect.
While I get that this is drawn out and beaten to death, I still don't understand how standing around/walking slowly would contribute to an increased stride length--it would be the opposite. So the "expert" explanation doesn't make sense and discredits his expertise. Or am I stupid?
The GPS signal itself will skip all over the place even when you are standing still, much further distances than each stride you would take standing around, and each "skip" is counted by the watch as a stride.
Today, I went on an easy run and my watch-based heart rate was 177. A little bit later, it was 143. Last fall, during a cross-country race, it read 210 (my max is 186).
Lots of sleuthing and opinions for and against here. Yes, some of the attention is negative, however, if she truly is a 2:30 marathoner and a badwater course record holder then it should be very easy for her to repeat elite level performances. A couple work class results with many unbiased 3rd party verifiers is all she needs to very quickly get the notoriety she so craves. She must be loving this opportunity… or maybe not? 🤔
curiousandcritical wrote:bale I get that this is drawn out and beaten to death, I still don't understand how standing around/walking slowly would contribute to an increased stride length--it would be the opposite. So the "expert" explanation doesn't make sense and discredits his expertise. Or am I stupid?
you're not stupid you just haven't used or owned a phone or watch with slightly dodgy GPS functionality/signal. when you stand still it bounces around all over the place.
I once had a run that claimed I made a 3 second round trip from the US to Brazil and back. 😂
While I get that this is drawn out and beaten to death, I still don't understand how standing around/walking slowly would contribute to an increased stride length--it would be the opposite. So the "expert" explanation doesn't make sense and discredits his expertise. Or am I stupid?
The GPS signal itself will skip all over the place even when you are standing still, much further distances than each stride you would take standing around, and each "skip" is counted by the watch as a stride.
Strides are determined based on readings from an accelerometer in the watch only. This is why you can fake steps by simply moving your wrist in a rhythmic fashion (bouncing your wrist hand on your knee will sometimes work) or lose steps by doing something with your wrist wearing hand that isn’t interpreted as a running motion. Strides can definitely be faked.
I am stuck on this too. I read Derek's review but I've been using HRM since my 20s. It does not seem humanly possible to be climbing for 2 hrs from 5000 to 8300 feet elevation, at the end of 100 miles in insane heat and maintain a 120 HR. Just running in the heat alone, time alone, altitude alone, and climbing alone all cause the HR to increase with what feels like the same effort. All of these factors were in play here. In addition, another post said her husband had told her she was close to breaking the course record so she started digging in. That just doesn't match up to a 120 HR.
I just re-read Derek's "investigation" a few things stood out.
1. Her husband claims he got in her ear about making the final climb from Lone Pine to set the record but they also have a text message from Wednesday morning at 8:20 or 9:20 a.m. (tough to tell from the image on the site) with bad news, that the keys were locked in the van. Per the receipt, it looks like Las Vegas. This was more than 9 or 10 hours after she finished the race. How did he have the conversation? When was he planning on leaving Las Vegas? There was no communication about the race? How did he talk to her during the race? The race, for Ashley, was Monday night at 11 p.m. until Tuesday night at just after 11 p.m. The story about him motivating her, about him not possibly being there in a sprinter van ... it doesn't add up. It's pretty easy to see those dots don't connect and it undermines the credibility of Derek's report. Either he's trying to spin, or he's just not very good at what he's doing with this one.
2. Offering a photo of somebody else holding a drink and saying it made it in a cooler from Stovepipe to Panamint with cubes intact is not only ridiculous as some form of proof that she ran the race, but it's very highly unlikely. Anybody who's been there knows how often you open up coolers and how warm it is. Ice melts. There's no way ice in a drink is going to last, and there's no way they'd get a drink in Stovepipe just to hold it for 50K. And not touch that cooler for that whole stretch, up Towne Pass and then down into the hottest part of the race.
3. Derek suspects Ashley and another runner crossed 395 in Lone Pine in different spots. Anybody who knows the first thing about this race knows that didn't happen. Just writing that should require an all-caps disclaimer at the top, saying he doesn't know or understand anything about Badwater other than it's hot and there's hills and it's 135 miles.
4. Derek's argument about the stride length and the GPS is essentially that the GPS worked perfectly until she hit the finish line, and then it was completely imperfect. Makes sense.
5. Derek never addressed why there were only 5500 data points in her file.
6. Derek decided to take the role of investigator, defense attorney and judge. Hardly impartial. And we know from Derek's history that he picks a side and sticks to it hard.
His report is smoke and mirrors, it's not credible and it proves nothing.
1. It wasn't Ashley's husband, it was Amber's. He wasn't in Las Vegas; Bracken's Tech and Tire is in St. George Utah, and Las Vegas is where they stopped for gas. And what makes you think the conversation was in person?
2. There are no ice cubes in Frazil drinks; they are frozen slushies.
3. She ran on the right side of the road on 395 and then crossed just before a left hand turn, at about 7pm in the middle of the week. Why didn't that happen?
4. You don't have to take Derek's word for the GPS jumping around, it's right there on the map. And this isn't exactly a new and unknown phenomenon.
I won't go on those things stood out, and then I stopped caring. You're having trouble connecting the dots because you don't understand where the dots are.