Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Hey no worries. Sorry to sound like a jack@ss when I replied. I'm fascinated by this case, too. And I want to state very clearly that I don't think outsiderunner is a cheat or a liar. I agree with the post above noting his consistency throughout the thread, his hardheadedness. I was the first responder to OP and followed this thread very closely for the first c.25 pages then trailed off. I appreciate your map posting and analysis, as the thing that interests me the most right now is how he ended up going off course. I think you're correct--he likely lost 2 minutes or so, depending on how quickly the women were able to direct him back to the trail. But it's just so strange--the failing watch, the wrong turn, the women who knew how to direct him back. I accept what OP says happened yet I'm really curious how this came to pass.As to what he could potentially run, that's a separate topic and one that's opened up many cans of worms. I have said that had he trained smarter for NYC he would have broken 3:00 there probably fairly easily. I think with careful following of a plan and smarter training and tapering he likely could run 2:55 or maybe even faster. But I have always hated those claims popular on Letsrun that someone's 3:05 time is "worth" 2:5X because of this, that, and the other thing. OP is a 3:02 marathoner. Let's hope he reads carefully, trains smart, and gets to be a 2:55 guy in fall 2017. I think he has the potential to do it but he's not there yet.Oh and as to the trail run I agree--he ran far better than I thought he would. 3:05 as a best result sounds about right.

PTF wrote:

My fault. Sorry to be unclear. I was just making two points...neither of which was meant to answer how he managed to make a wrong turn:

1) The road he turned onto looks absolutely nothing like a rail trail. Not that he is lying...it's only to point out that it's even harder to understand how he went off course when you see what road he ended up on.

2) He could have only lost ~2 minutes since he added

I brushed over the entire thread but got the impression that some felt he could have broken 3:02 or even 3:00...when, in fact, it is virtually certain...based on exactly what said...that he would not have broken 3:05. I thought it would be helpful to quantify exactly how far off course he actually went.

Sorry if I am repeating something that was already covered.

He is the ONLY person I heard about going off course. So, does this sound like a problem with the course, or does this sound like his own personal problem?

Disagree. Daniels is not how it's been described. For example, his 2Q plan lets you pick your mileage and prescribes only two of the workouts per week. The rest of the running is at your discretion but at EASY pace that is specifically defined for physiological reasons. You still have the discretion to split up the rest of the miles over the remainder of the week however you want/take a rest day if you want. You can run your quality workout on a different day every week if you want to (just not back to back). The criticism I've heard of Daniels is actually that it gives people that want to be told exactly what to do too much freedom, so it seems perfect for you. Leeway on which days you do which runs, but better guidance on how fast you should be doing each part of each run.

You've displayed some ignorance as to what actually makes people better runners over time, what causes injury, etc. You've only been running a couple years and you haven't read anything on the subject. You're a novice. Pretty fast for a novice, but a novice. Based on that, I wouldn't say that you're at a point where you definitively "know what's best for you." You certainly seem to think you do, but you may be surprised if you actually open up your mind to learn something.

Wannabe coach, I am wondering if you actually read Daniel's book? He talks about "if you're not feeling it that day don't push through it" (the day to day how you feel component you mention from Hudson) he gives guidelines for a lot of training plans rather than rigidly putting the plan forward, he has SEVERAL different marathon plans depending on current fitness, goals, time, etc. It seems way more flexible to me than a lot of other things. (like Hansons, for instance) Admittedly, I haven't read Hudson's yet, but Daniels seems pretty legit.

you are on it wrote:

I agree. His reply back about his slower PR made my day. I also measure myself against David S. Pumpkins.

Smoove wrote:

Other than my original post on the first or second page, I have sat back and watched this thread play out; but I have to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the David S. Pumpkins portion of it.

Nice to hear I have some fans.

"you are on it"... how do you stack up, do you think you can beat David S. Pumpkins?

Yes, the course, at least at certain road crossings (as Molk himself has pointed out), should have been more appropriately marked and controlled. I have been in a number of races where the police give instructions for staying on the course, even using their vehicles to keep runners focused on the right path. Even in this race, when I got to around mile 25, I had a policeman tell me "Stay right" as I approached a turn.

Poor sportsmanship? Yes, I was quite upset (and even apologized to you and the others at the table...but you do not mention that), but what did I pay $105 for? For an unmanned road crossing? To have someone who appeared to be directing things let me go off course?

quote]

This is very constructive, Wannabe coach, and I thank you for the book suggestion. I am interested in comparing Hudson's approach to that of JD. On the surface, Hudson's approach seems appropriate...and suited toward me. Yes, I would rather have a certain amount of control over my plan and day-to-day training, as opposed to blindly following a generic plan.

All the best to you...[/quote]

I ran a 2:30 marathon on a certified course a few months shy of my 44th birthday using Daniels' "generic plan."

What people don't seem to understand is that you don't simply blindly follow a plan. You read and digest the physiology underlying the plan. You then adjust the plan as needed to fit your calendar. People don't expect you to write down the schedule from a book and then do exactly that. In fact, Daniels' plans don't lay out a day-by-day schedule. He gives you the two quality days per week that you should be doing and you fill in the rest. If you read and understand the parts about the underlying physiology, you should understand why he proposes the kinds of quality days he proposes and why he proposes they be done at different times in the training cycle. You should also understand why your non-quality days should be easy days.

I am not advocating that anyone follow Daniels. I am not even advocating anything to you. I am really just noting for others following the string that the suggestion that anyone follow a generic plan is simply a mischaracterization of what Daniels' book is about.

Thanks, Smoove. My main intent, in regard to Daniels or Hudson, is to understand the underlying principles or physiology.

I asked a few posts ago why a cop would be at an intersection if you weren't supposed to cross the road. That is, if you were supposed to emerge from the trail and turn right onto Monkton there would be no need for a cop. Looking at the image PTF most helpfully posted, however, it looks like you'd cross Monkton to run a tangent bringing you close to the south side of the road. So maybe having a cop there could increase confusion: his role was to stop traffic so runners could continue across Monkton on the trail; you thought his job was to stop traffic so you could cross Monkton but run along its south side after crossing, turning right instead of going straight.Can you remember exactly where the car was positioned? Was he on the north side, middle of the road, south side?Have others said they ran the race and didn't see a cop car there? What were you supposed to do if you got to Monkton and there was traffic? Were you just on your own to get across the street? I don't know the area at all. I'm guessing on a Sunday morning this wasn't an issue but it seems strange there wasn't anyone at all helping people cross, no?

outsiderunner wrote:

...but what did I pay $105 for? For an unmanned road crossing? To have someone who appeared to be directing things let me go off course?

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

Nice to hear I have some fans.

"you are on it"... how do you stack up, do you think you can beat David S. Pumpkins?

Only if the stars align. Would need flat course, no wind, no stupid cops, more helpful old ladies and a cold fridge the night before.

Hey Smoove,

Only problem I have with Daniels marathon plans is the duration of the mid-week workout. For most working sops like me, just don't have time to run 18 mid-week. I might be able to split up through doubles but kind of defeats the purpose. But that's my problem.

These are excellent questions, Er., and, yes, it does seem strange. The only one I know that said he did not seem a cop there is Molk, and your questions show why making assumptions (or accusations) is wrong. No one who was behind me, and perhaps saw what I did, has been queried. Likewise, the police officer, who clearly saw what I did, is also not available in this thread. He would also have remembered what I said to him as I got back to the trail.

In terms of positioning, the police car was definitely toward the south side of the road (the opposite side of the the road as I approached), and he was positioned in the area of the front fender of his car. All of these things, and the fact that I could spot no other runner in front of me, indicated that I should turn right.

In another post, you had also mentioned the timing of my turn, Er. I do not mind addressing this again. I already provided some input in an earlier post, but since your intent is clearly constructive, I will provide some commentary here. I noted that I have been in a number of races in which the on-line race map did not quite match that of the actual course itself. And with the policeman and his car there--and no other course official (i.e. a race-appointed marshal)--it seemed I should turn right. Also keep in mind that these are decisions that have to be made quickly, and that I was racing, not hiking or walking along the trail. Also, the policeman's car was in that south lane, not parked across Monkton Rd, blocking it. If anything, it was partially blocking the trail (as I have mentioned), not Monkton. To be precise, it served to block or "fill" that lane of Monkton, but not the other lane.

All the best...

There was a cop at Monkton Rd. He was directing traffic, not runners. There is also a large aid station at the rail trail parking lot at the Monkton Rd crossing. If he was so confused, he could have slowed down for 5 seconds and asked someone at the aid station what to do. And, even if all of those things failed, the Monkton Rd crossing is around mile 21.5, meaning there are still 4.7 miles to run. I'm sure he read the course description that says: "The start and finish are at Sparks Elementary School, with the first 1.8 miles being on rural paved roads as you make your way to the trail. The last 1.5 miles of the race are also on hilly paved roads. The remainder of the race is on the flat stretches of the NCR Trail" Knowing that only the last 1.5-2 miles of the race are on the road should have been a big red flag about turning off at Monkton Rd.

When I approached, the policeman was looking in my direction, not looking toward traffic (if any) on Monkton Rd.

Also, I do not recall seeing any aid station at Monkton Rd. There was one a bit further ahead, and I think this is what you are thinking of.

I'm in the camp that he needed to take a dump.

you are on it wrote:

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

Nice to hear I have some fans.

"you are on it"... how do you stack up, do you think you can beat David S. Pumpkins?

Only if the stars align. Would need flat course, no wind, no stupid cops, more helpful old ladies and a cold fridge the night before.

You know, I'm really thankful for all the data I've been recording in my running log over the years. I've noticed a powerful direct correlation between pre-race fridge temperatures and my race times. I'd prefer not to share how much I've spent updating my kitchen. The compressor's loud, but it's worth it.

What? This just gets weirder and weirder. How did you go off course right at an aid station?Here's one possibility, and I mean no harm or malice from this suggestion. I wonder if it's possible, given the pressure to perform from pages and pages of discussion here as well as your own certainty that NYC was a poor performance relative to expectations, that when you realized at NCR that things weren't going to go as well as you'd hoped, you subconsciously sabotaged yourself by going off course, giving yourself a fallback to explain the less than hoped for result. Certainly far stranger things have happened.

Molkinsloth wrote:

There is also a large aid station at the rail trail parking lot at the Monkton Rd crossing. If he was so confused, he could have slowed down for 5 seconds and asked someone at the aid station what to do.

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

you are on it wrote:

Only if the stars align. Would need flat course, no wind, no stupid cops, more helpful old ladies and a cold fridge the night before.

You know, I'm really thankful for all the data I've been recording in my running log over the years. I've noticed a powerful direct correlation between pre-race fridge temperatures and my race times. I'd prefer not to share how much I've spent updating my kitchen. The compressor's loud, but it's worth it.

It may all be a joke to you, but you should know that, in order to run your best, you do have to "get all the stars to align," so to speak. Many runners, including many elite runners, have discussed this. In fact, in any type of endeavor, things have to go well in order for the best result to be possible.

No sabatoge, my friend, I had some fatigue of course, but I was feeling good, knowing I was working on a negative split. Perhaps you missed my post, but I have said that there was no aid station there at the Monkton intersection.

Wrong. I've run this race 4 times. You are not remembering correctly. The aid station is in this parking lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5788765,-76.6147278,224m/data=