Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

jiggymeister wrote:

is your HM pace? wrote:

4:00 is around your HM pace right? If so reading the rest of the thread sirpoc post a lot of in depth, seems a lot of his sub T stuff is around this pace and he also says he brought down at 5k speed and so on. So highly believe this could be correct. You are really improving by that much and lower the lactate at that speed. So full congrats to you. I think now we have enough for even skeptic like me that maybe this is the best way for hobby jogger on 5-8 hours a week. I like 75% as target mention for easy by sirpoc. No more than 25% sub T. Discipline I think be people main issue to stick to this.

4:00/km is exactly my HM average pace. 4:00/km is exactly my HM average pace.

Most of my workouts in the 7 weeks between the two tests were at this pace or slower. Rarely faster and definitely not for long durations. I did a few 400's sessions outdoors with 30 second rest in which I went faster than my HM pace (but also slower at times, due to the harsh humid summer I'm in).

Moreover, I went ahead and did my first VO2 Max work yesterday, after not having done any such work since March. I wanted to do so for two reasons:

1) Sharpen up for a local 5K that I might do next week.

2) Test the system and just introduce some variety to the stress stimulus I've been subjecting myself to.

So I set out to run a classic 5x1K in the evening. It is still very hot over here, but was not overly humid. It was 32.8 degrees Celsius with a relative humidity of 56% yielding a real feel of only 38.3 degrees Celsius (I say only because we can get days with a real feel of 50-55 degrees Celsius, so yeah).

Having woken up with a somehow tight chest and given the conditions, I thought I'd be satisfied with hitting 3:30/km pace, or anything around that.

I split the first rep in 3:20.3, and just started laughing out loud just as I did when I watched Jakob waving to the crowd during the semi final the other day. That first rep felt incredibly easy that I thought there must be something wrong. After a 400m jog recovery, I continued. Well here are the splits for the second, third and fourth kilometers:
3:21.5
3:22.1
3:23.9

Things did get tough for the last reps, and I mentally quit on the fifth last rep after 0.5 km which was also at 3:21/km pace. HR maxed out at 198 bpm which is 98% of Max HR for me.

It was hot, I was solo, I had done weight training and 4 km easy in the morning before work, and I still managed to run faster than I used to during the winter when I had company for some of the workouts.

Sure, I have been running more mileage lately, but that can't be the sole reason behind this. There's something to running these controlled sub threshold efforts.

On we go.

broken record again wrote:

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

Not doing the race pace ( except marathon pace) in training will never get you to your optimal possible race times.

Here you go. Like a broken record again. The dude you are replying to set elite times cycling in the UK time trial scene, a sport aerobically very, very similar to how we need to train as runners, with no race pace work. Read through the thread. I found it fascinating. I believe I read in the thread this was his PB training like this in both sports? He's also shared that he only then starting hitting PBs again in running, using the same approach. After hitting a brick wall. I know you are dumb, but what don't you understand about this? You are so arrogant because it doesn't fit into your magic system (lol) that you can't get your head around it. It's called pushing up your threshold from below, it's surely not that hard for you to get your head around? I expect you don't even understand training loads or why this is happening. Some coach.

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

broken record again wrote:

Here you go. Like a broken record again. The dude you are replying to set elite times cycling in the UK time trial scene, a sport aerobically very, very similar to how we need to train as runners, with no race pace work. Read through the thread. I found it fascinating. I believe I read in the thread this was his PB training like this in both sports? He's also shared that he only then starting hitting PBs again in running, using the same approach. After hitting a brick wall. I know you are dumb, but what don't you understand about this? You are so arrogant because it doesn't fit into your magic system (lol) that you can't get your head around it. It's called pushing up your threshold from below, it's surely not that hard for you to get your head around? I expect you don't even understand training loads or why this is happening. Some coach.

I see you haven`t noticed one very important thing here when you make a comment? I don`t insult people here like you do and call them dumb . I have coached 4 male marathoners 2:07- 2:10, a female 2:26:30 debut, a couple of 800 runners 1:46-1:47 , a solo 3:42 1500m up at high altitude, a bronze 1500m in the South African Champs, a silver in the junior 1500m East African games, an Ultra runner to a PB of 1:06 at the half up at high altitude in Eldoret,a couple nof 61 min half marathons, been asked by Geoffrey Kamworor to coach him in secret in a world record attempt at 15 k road. Don`t call me dumb mister!! When it comes down how to train the best way whatever level of the runner there are very few on this earth who knows it better than me.

shirtboy2022 wrote:

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

I see you haven`t noticed one very important thing here when you make a comment? I don`t insult people here like you do and call them dumb . I have coached 4 male marathoners 2:07- 2:10, a female 2:26:30 debut, a couple of 800 runners 1:46-1:47 , a solo 3:42 1500m up at high altitude, a bronze 1500m in the South African Champs, a silver in the junior 1500m East African games, an Ultra runner to a PB of 1:06 at the half up at high altitude in Eldoret,a couple nof 61 min half marathons, been asked by Geoffrey Kamworor to coach him in secret in a world record attempt at 15 k road. Don`t call me dumb mister!! When it comes down how to train the best way whatever level of the runner there are very few on this earth who knows it better than me.

Many of us have already tried what you espouse. We apparently arent responders to that approach or the accumulated stress and fatigue of our non elite endurance level lives has required us to take a different, time limited, stress managed approach.

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

jiggymeister wrote:

Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. As if we have anything to gain saying that we are getting results by this method!

Do I think everyone else is wrong? Nope.

Do I think everyone can benefit from this method/system? Yes.

Training (and life) needs not to be black or white. It is a spectrum and we have ended up on a part of it that allows us to see sustainable progress.

I've run my PBs in 2021 off of traditional Daniels training, but I stagnated in a frustrating manner of the next two years. I can now see room for improvement again with this system.

Like sirpoc mentions, I hardly feel beat up after these long, controlled sub threshold efforts.

Yesterday's VO2 Max session? Quiet the opposite. I felt a noticeable fatigue and soreness post workout, and my recovery metrics from the Garmin mirrors that completely.

Besides, you do realize that the defending world champion in the 5000m does train in a similar fashion, don't you?

Do you realize that we have never heard about the three times 10000m World Champ and world record holder Joshua Cheptegai does slow thresholds like this or the new marathon star Kelvin Kiptum or Kipchoge or Geoffrey Kamworor or just name them all the African world class runners in history? That you stagnated as you say with Daniels training is most truly you have to do his paces and length of reps in another more effective way.

Contrails wrote:

jiggymeister wrote:

4:00/km is exactly my HM average pace. 4:00/km is exactly my HM average pace.

Most of my workouts in the 7 weeks between the two tests were at this pace or slower. Rarely faster and definitely not for long durations. I did a few 400's sessions outdoors with 30 second rest in which I went faster than my HM pace (but also slower at times, due to the harsh humid summer I'm in).

Moreover, I went ahead and did my first VO2 Max work yesterday, after not having done any such work since March. I wanted to do so for two reasons:

1) Sharpen up for a local 5K that I might do next week.

2) Test the system and just introduce some variety to the stress stimulus I've been subjecting myself to.

So I set out to run a classic 5x1K in the evening. It is still very hot over here, but was not overly humid. It was 32.8 degrees Celsius with a relative humidity of 56% yielding a real feel of only 38.3 degrees Celsius (I say only because we can get days with a real feel of 50-55 degrees Celsius, so yeah).

Having woken up with a somehow tight chest and given the conditions, I thought I'd be satisfied with hitting 3:30/km pace, or anything around that.

I split the first rep in 3:20.3, and just started laughing out loud just as I did when I watched Jakob waving to the crowd during the semi final the other day. That first rep felt incredibly easy that I thought there must be something wrong. After a 400m jog recovery, I continued. Well here are the splits for the second, third and fourth kilometers:
3:21.5
3:22.1
3:23.9

Things did get tough for the last reps, and I mentally quit on the fifth last rep after 0.5 km which was also at 3:21/km pace. HR maxed out at 198 bpm which is 98% of Max HR for me.

It was hot, I was solo, I had done weight training and 4 km easy in the morning before work, and I still managed to run faster than I used to during the winter when I had company for some of the workouts.

Sure, I have been running more mileage lately, but that can't be the sole reason behind this. There's something to running these controlled sub threshold efforts.

On we go.

Jiggy, this is fascinating. Based on that workout of k repeats you’ll likely be around 17:00 for 5k off of never running faster than 4:00 k pace. Sirpoc is around the same for 5k running closer to 3:45s.

Does this show that you can run even slower, sub-sub-threshold, and get nearly the same benefits? 15s per k slower for the same results.

COACH WIZARD 1 wrote:

broken record again wrote:

Here you go. Like a broken record again. The dude you are replying to set elite times cycling in the UK time trial scene, a sport aerobically very, very similar to how we need to train as runners, with no race pace work. Read through the thread. I found it fascinating. I believe I read in the thread this was his PB training like this in both sports? He's also shared that he only then starting hitting PBs again in running, using the same approach. After hitting a brick wall. I know you are dumb, but what don't you understand about this? You are so arrogant because it doesn't fit into your magic system (lol) that you can't get your head around it. It's called pushing up your threshold from below, it's surely not that hard for you to get your head around? I expect you don't even understand training loads or why this is happening. Some coach.

I see you haven`t noticed one very important thing here when you make a comment? I don`t insult people here like you do and call them dumb . I have coached 4 male marathoners 2:07- 2:10, a female 2:26:30 debut, a couple of 800 runners 1:46-1:47 , a solo 3:42 1500m up at high altitude, a bronze 1500m in the South African Champs, a silver in the junior 1500m East African games, an Ultra runner to a PB of 1:06 at the half up at high altitude in Eldoret,a couple nof 61 min half marathons, been asked by Geoffrey Kamworor to coach him in secret in a world record attempt at 15 k road. Don`t call me dumb mister!! When it comes down how to train the best way whatever level of the runner there are very few on this earth who knows it better than me.