"Pandemic of the unvaccinated" CONFIRMED

antivaxxers killing-democracy wrote:

joed|rrt wrote:

How well have vaccines stopped Omicron in Australia? Blaming explosive case growth on the unvaccinated when vaccines do basically nothing to stop one from contracting omicron demonstrates your level of reasoning.

Very few people are disputing the reduced efficacy of 2 dose vaccination against omicron. What I was pointing to is the desperation of antivaxxers to cling to anything to rationalize their religious belief in the use of ivermectin. One such belief was that the collapse in infection rate in Japan was because of increased use of ivermectin.

Come on. 2 dose vaccination is working exceptionally well against Omicron in New York - 77.8% efficiency against infection according to their website. Can't replicate their results anywhere else on the planet, but New York has it figured out.

Not sure how ivermectin made its way onto a thread about vaccine mandates (pretty certain you are the one that went off on the ivermectin tangent), but here we are. If you want a proven treatment, stick to convalescent plasma or certain types of monoclonal antibodies (if you can find them, they are in short supply). There is no need to take lice medication unless you have lice or some other parasite. The anti-viral pills seem to offer some protection as well. By and large with Omicron, most treatments are not necessary if one has been vaccinated or had a previous infection unless they are in a high-risk age group. The CFR for COVID continues to drop, primarily due to the fact that for most individuals, it is no longer a novel virus.

Nobody reasonable has disputed that Omicron is breaking through 2x doses and infection-driven immunity with ease. Protection against hospitalization remains very high.

Mandates are necessary to protect overuse of medical infrastructure. We cannot predict what the next variant/wave will look like (hopefully we never see another :-) ), but we know that prior waves have deeply stressed medical resources primarily due to unvaxxed illness. We should aim to prevent that in the future with vaccine mandates.

Except previously infected unvaccinated individuals (as most will be after this current wave) do not get sick as often as vaccinated individuals and end up in the hospital less often than vaccinated individuals:

joed|rrtt wrote:

Harambe wrote:

Nobody reasonable has disputed that Omicron is breaking through 2x doses and infection-driven immunity with ease. Protection against hospitalization remains very high.

Mandates are necessary to protect overuse of medical infrastructure. We cannot predict what the next variant/wave will look like (hopefully we never see another :-) ), but we know that prior waves have deeply stressed medical resources primarily due to unvaxxed illness. We should aim to prevent that in the future with vaccine mandates.

Except previously infected unvaccinated individuals (as most will be after this current wave) do not get sick as often as vaccinated individuals and end up in the hospital less often than vaccinated individuals:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w#T2_down

The Delta wave was unique, it seems, in that prior infection conferred unusually strong protection against infection. This is not the case with Omicron and thusly I don't trust data from Delta to apply to Omicron.

Harambe wrote:

joed|rrtt wrote:

Except previously infected unvaccinated individuals (as most will be after this current wave) do not get sick as often as vaccinated individuals and end up in the hospital less often than vaccinated individuals:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm?s_cid=mm7104e1_w#T2_down

The Delta wave was unique, it seems, in that prior infection conferred unusually strong protection against infection. This is not the case with Omicron and thusly I don't trust data from Delta to apply to Omicron.

No, it is just that after years of downplaying the concept of Natural Immunity, they are at a point where they have to acknowledge it (even without the correlates of protection that they insist on). The Kaiser study you provided demonstrates further evidence of the concept:

Last check at Mesa county, the breakthrough infection rate was 97 cases per 10k previously vaxxed, while the reinfection rate was 17 per 10k. While I believe pretty much everyone is getting Omicron (vaxxed, unvaxxed, boosted, previously infected, etc.), the fact that individuals who were previously infected are not sick enough to seek out a test is reassuring (and even less likely to end up in the hospital according to the Kaiser data). That natural immunity has been proven is great news for everyone (the previously infected and the vaccinated individuals who had breakthrough infections with delta or omicron. The antibodies and t-cell memory conferred by the reinfection will be more relevant to combatting future variants than the two-year-old virus that the shots were designed around. The further removed we are from the original disease, the less effective the vaccines will be.

These things -sound- good but without epidemiological evidence we should not assume that infection gives better immunity. There's a reason nobody smart said as much before Delta -- we didn't have any data to support it! The vaccine induces stronger immune (and less variable) responses than infection and the spike protein has many immunodominant epitopes. There's no reason to believe that 'more epitopes' = 'better response' if you're diluting out good epitopes with bad ones for the sake of breadth alone.

Given that we are still missing 2-3 infections for every positive test, there are likely way more reinfections than we are cataloging so looking at raw reinfection rates is pretty useless. It's going to be even worse than your issues with vaccine record matching!

The Kaiser study, as you've said, had a small population of documented reinfections but, notably, they found it did not alter the risk ratio of hospital admission! They didn't find evidence of protection! Not that it's not there, but they either didn't have the power to show it or the effect is actually not there.

Um...guys? You can stop using the term "breakthrough". When every person you know that gets this has been vaccinated, it's no longer a "breakthrough". Carry on.

Harambe wrote:

Mandates are necessary to protect overuse of medical infrastructure.

I know this point has been made, but it bears repeating.

Hospitals wouldn’t be as taxed if they didn’t mandate vaccines for hospital staff, forcing them to relieve a significant portion of their workforce. There’s a circular logic here.

suspicion in the ignition_ wrote:

Harambe wrote:

Mandates are necessary to protect overuse of medical infrastructure.

I know this point has been made, but it bears repeating.

Hospitals wouldn’t be as taxed if they didn’t mandate vaccines for hospital staff, forcing them to relieve a significant portion of their workforce. There’s a circular logic here.

Any HCW who refuses to get vaccinated (absent a narrow range of legitimate medical exceptions) is so deficient in quantitative ability that their removal is a net-positive to quality of care.

Do you really want a HCW administering fentanyl when they can't get the vaccine risk:benefit math correct to within... oh... about 3-4 orders of magnitude? I certainly done.

Regardless, HCW shortages due to vaccine mandates are few and far between. Documented firings are 1-2% of workforces:

Good grief, what a waste. Her husband and son caught it, but were vaccinated and apparently have come out fine; she deliberately got it from them so she'd have "natural immunity."

Well, I guess in a sense she does: Nothing's gonna make her sick now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/singer-dies-after-deliberately-catching-covid-19/ar-AASYVyN?ocid=msedgntp

Ivyguy wrote:

Good grief, what a waste. Her husband and son caught it, but were vaccinated and apparently have come out fine; she deliberately got it from them so she'd have "natural immunity."

Well, I guess in a sense she does: Nothing's gonna make her sick now.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/singer-dies-after-deliberately-catching-covid-19/ar-AASYVyN?ocid=msedgntp

NYC data, now DEEP into the Omicron wave, confirms outstanding vaccine efficacy against hospitalization.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

Updated CDC data shows similar trends. Vaccines (and especially boosters) work great:

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

Harambe wrote:

Updated CDC data shows similar trends. Vaccines (and especially boosters) work great:

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

[quote|NYC data, now DEEP into the Omicron wave, confirms outstanding vaccine efficacy against hospitalization.

]

Joedirty goes home DEVASTATED!

antivaxxers killing-democracy wrote:

Harambe wrote:

Updated CDC data shows similar trends. Vaccines (and especially boosters) work great:

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

[quote|NYC data, now DEEP into the Omicron wave, confirms outstanding vaccine efficacy against hospitalization.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

Joedirty goes home DEVASTATED![/quote]

Oh lawd is it over for me? I’m turning into Unkle from being around him so much

antivaxxers killing-democracy wrote:

antivaxxers killing-democracy wrote:

[quote|NYC data, now DEEP into the Omicron wave, confirms outstanding vaccine efficacy against hospitalization.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

Joedirty goes home DEVASTATED!

Oh lawd is it over for me? I’m turning into Unkle from being around him so much[/quote]

Happens to all of us....

antivaxxers killing-democracy wrote:

antivaxxers killing-democracy wrote:

[quote|NYC data, now DEEP into the Omicron wave, confirms outstanding vaccine efficacy against hospitalization.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily

Joedirty goes home DEVASTATED!

Oh lawd is it over for me? I’m turning into Unkle from being around him so much[/quote]

I am afraid there is no hope of that for you.

Your uncritical acceptance of the establishment propaganda is just too overwhelming.

Your need to stay in the safety of Groupthink ensures that you will never have an independent thought and dare go against the group.

Kinda funny though how all the staff shortages began just as the mandates came through. Perhaps the data and classifications of how workers are leaving is getting massaged, but it doesn't reflect reality. The doctors I know in NYC started to have to work extra shifts in October or so just to get enough people on the floor...even ones who were no longer patient facing. And that's not even considering the more unvaccinated population of RNs and other assistants.

Your opinion on health care workers who were there when for everyone when no protection was in place is just off. And removing those workers who are now desperately needed is certainly not a net positive for people turned away from emergency care.