Is Caster Semenya's testosterone level in terms of standard deviation the equivalent of a man being more than 22 feet tall?

rojo wrote:

Despite my A+ in Econometrics at Princeton, my 80 on the PSAT math

So what you're saying is the standard deviations from the mean for her T levels are the standard deviation below the mean for you PSAT scores given you get 200 pts or whatever for writing your name? That's crazy!!!!

David S wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Standard deviations may be fun for maths majors but the stat I'm more interested in is 7 seconds. That's what Semenya is estimated to lose from her current best over 800m if she brings her T within the newly-prescribed limits.

It would also be important to know what would happen if you give the same medication to women with XX chromosomes. Assuming they're not DSD, if you lower the testosterone level of Ajee Wilson or Lindsey Sharp, how much slower would they run? Maybe it'll slow them down by 8 seconds. If we're going down this road I think the important question isn't whether testosterone has an effect on performance (because we all think it does) or whether Caster Semenya has elevated levels of testosterone (because this is easily measurable) but whether her body is able to make use of her elevated testosterone levels.

At least anecdotally, you can tell that testosterone has a huge impact on performance. The first IAAF rule was enforced starting 2011/2012 to 2015 when it was overturned by the CAS. Below are Caster Semenya's yearly season bests. During these few years, she underwent therapy to lower her T levels. You can see her times trending generally upwards before dropping sharply 4 seconds in 2016. So does testosterone have an impact on performance? There seems to be some relationship unless she just happened to be training worse or injured or not trying as hard over these several years.

2019 1:54.98 Doha (QAT) 03 MAY 2019

2018 1:54.25 Paris (FRA) 30 JUN 2018

2017 1:55.16 London (GBR) 13 AUG 2017

2016 1:55.28 Rio de Janeiro (BRA) 20 AUG 2016

2015 1:59.59 Beijing (CHN) 26 AUG 2015

2014 2:02.66 Roma (ITA) 05 JUN 2014

2013 1:58.92 Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2013

2012 1:57.23 London (GBR) 11 AUG 2012

2011 1:56.35 Daegu (KOR) 04 SEP 2011

2010 1:58.16 Milano (ITA) 09 SEP 2010

2009 1:55.45 Berlin (GER) 19 AUG 2009

2008 2:04.23 Pune (IND) 16 OCT 2008

asdfasdgadg wrote:

Most things in nature follow a normal distribution , so I think it's very fair to use that.

Her testes are then the zize of tennis balls .

Has a deeper voice and bigger guns than most of the male runners on this board.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ask whether her body can make use of testosterone at all -- we have been told that some of her body's androgen receptors are active. But the question is how much her body can make of that excess testosterone and whether she has a significant advantage over women born with two X chromosomes. In other words, not "does it have an impact" but "does it have more of an impact for her than it does for other women". Or something like that. Sorry, I'm tired today.

At least anecdotally, you can tell that testosterone has a huge impact on performance.

You mean because they have a separate division for those of us who grow up with testosterone? Or do you mean because steroids are called 'performance-enhancing drugs'?

I'd say there's never been the least amount of doubt, except for the IAAF.

Oh totally. That is a completely fair question which I wish I knew the answer to. One would guess that at a minimum, it has a lower impact on her than men (not what you asked I know) since she would not be anywhere close to comparable to men on the elite level even though her T levels might be similar to many. Relative to women, you would have to try to compare DSD women to normal XX that have similar T levels maybe to see if they use it more or less efficiently or to what extent.

David S wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Standard deviations may be fun for maths majors but the stat I'm more interested in is 7 seconds. That's what Semenya is estimated to lose from her current best over 800m if she brings her T within the newly-prescribed limits.

It would also be important to know what would happen if you give the same medication to women with XX chromosomes. Assuming they're not DSD, if you lower the testosterone level of Ajee Wilson or Lindsey Sharp, how much slower would they run? Maybe it'll slow them down by 8 seconds. If we're going down this road I think the important question isn't whether testosterone has an effect on performance (because we all think it does) or whether Caster Semenya has elevated levels of testosterone (because this is easily measurable) but whether her body is able to make use of her elevated testosterone levels.

We know that it does, because when she was previously required to reduce her levels of testosterone she couldn't break 2 minutes.

Much, much lower "standard of deviations" than say number of men that can run a 2:00 or sub2 marathon, exponentially lower.

By the way, if you actually read the studies, there are women like Caster who have given birth, but you insist they are all men eh? I think I'll believe the studies over your gut instinct.

What’s the point of this? Elevated T has been discussed. You can continue the discussion of T and fairness without depicting her as some kind of circus freak. It’s really gross Rojo.

Marilyn vos Savant has an IQ of 228. That’s equivalent to a man having 50lb testicles! Can you believe it!?

Dr. R wrote:

Marilyn vos Savant has an IQ of 228. That’s equivalent to a man having 50lb testicles! Can you believe it!?

What do you think I've got in the wheelbarrow?

Dr. R wrote:

Marilyn vos Savant has an IQ of 228. That’s equivalent to a man having 50lb testicles! Can you believe it!?

Big deal. The leader of North Korea has both.

T levels alone don't determine levels of athletic performance, as every average male athlete - which is what she is - shows. You should debate something you know something about. Sports isn't one them.

Buffalo soldier!!!

um okay wrote:

if you actually read the studies, there are women like Caster who have given birth, but you insist they are all men eh?.

Does Caster Semenya produce eggs? No way. Therefore, giving birth would be a neat trick. Not to mention the (presumed) lack of a uterus.

For all anyone knows she may be a male who suffered a botched circumcision at birth and was raised as a girl as a result.

stinkbird wrote:

um okay wrote:

if you actually read the studies, there are women like Caster who have given birth, but you insist they are all men eh?.

Does Caster Semenya produce eggs? No way. Therefore, giving birth would be a neat trick. Not to mention the (presumed) lack of a uterus.

For all anyone knows she may be a male who suffered a botched circumcision at birth and was raised as a girl as a result.

No ovaries and no womb. Conception would be hard enough, let alone giving birth.

Equivalently to the opening post, it would be equivalent to being -10 feet tall.

clickbait much? wrote:

Yeah weve seen the 400 threads on letsrun insulting semenya over and over, and the letsrun community clearly agrees with you on these sensational and invasive stories.

Yes she has high testosterone, she lost the appeal, now stop talking about how she has high testosterone.

just leave her alone

Agreed, just a wannabe pseudo journalist....if he knew anything about biochemistry (and stats btw) he would know that you cannot analogise testosterone to height

...and on height, who knows, if a genetic abnormality gives a potential foetus that likelihood, it might also be impossible for that foetus to survive