DACA: We The People need to understand that Withholding Mercy is not necessarily Immoral.

trollism wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

The wall should be built because the American people voted to build the wall. Also, it will take less than 2 days of the annual Federal budget to build it, so all the concerns about wasted money should be aimed elsewhere. Take all the money we put into Global Warming research and put it toward building the wall and the country will be far better off.

So what you're saying is that the last presidential election was simply a referendum on a pointless wall?

The wall would not be pointless. It actually would physically deter many people, but more importantly it would be a manifestation of our commitment to enforcing our immigration laws, discouraging many who would otherwise come here illegally, which would save us the money of having to hunt them down and deport them. It would probable save money in the long run. No matter what, another $20 billion on the $20 trillion debt is lost in the noise. We should ask Israel if walls work. To a large extent I think they do.

Luke

24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Harambe wrote:

Rojo,

Well reasoned, I agree with most of it. Let trump build some kind of 'wall' to make his supporters happy.

However, citizenship by birthright is long tenant of the American Way. We are one of the few countries in the world that offers it. It is a central idea of the American Dream, come immigrate, work hard, so that your children may be afforded the wonders of America.

A compromise would be that children born to only illegal immigrants are not given birthright citizenship. Those with legal non-citizen status are fine.

I actually also agree with lots of what Rojo said, but not that d*mn wall. It doesn't do a thing to keep people out, and we don't need a symbol from the Trump era (one that will last less than one full term) to remind us of the most incompetent President ever. I have no need to appease Trump voters. They made a mistake.

Here is the only Trump memorial we should have:

...unless it's one of him behind bars.

I don't think you really believe that. Politicians run on a variety of platforms, but voting for a candidate (or, in this case, voting AGAINST another candidate) does not necessarily mean you endorse all of their views.

I strongly disagree, and I believe you are conflating morality and criminality. If a law is just, breaking it would be immoral. If a law is unjust, it is possible that it would be immoral to follow the law (for example refusing to turn over jews to the gestapo would be illegal, but moral). The law can be flawed.

Now, I agree that breaking immigration law is a wrongdoing, but I do not believe it is as severe a wrongdoing as many hardliners believe. I believe this is the point of divergence. IMO drug smuggling, human trafficking, and participating in drug cartels, those are the real crimes. Bringing your kids across the border for a better life looks like jaywalking in comparison. In fact, there are some cases in which it might be a greater moral wrongdoing if parents had left their children to grow up in poverty or crime ridden cities or countries where they might have grown up much worse. Illegal immigration can, in some cases, be the lesser of two evils. And in such a case, applying the punishment dictated by an arbitrary law (ie deporting someone to a country they do not call home, stripping them of the entire life they've worked for) is not only merciless, but disproportionate and immoral.

The question of whether being merciful is the moral thing to do is a misleading question, because it presumes that the law as it is is already just. A better question is whether our immigration law itself is moral, and whether it might be more moral to reform our broken immigration system so that it is practical to immigrate legally. There are many reasons why illegal immigration is problematic, but the only argument I've heard from hardliners against legal immigration is that it is necessary to segregate peoples to preserve "our way of life," which I believe is a dubious argument. Regardless, ethnic purity should not be a priority over the well being of people.

My worldview is Christian, and obviously that informs my beliefs with regards to mercy. I do not subscribe to the fetishization of mercilessness and punishment. Are you familiar with the parable of the sheep and the goats? I believe failing to help the "least of these," failing to forgive, failing to be merciful, living in selfishness are among the gravest sins we can commit. Being merciful does not automatically mean you are being moral in every case, but mercilessness against people who are already disadvantaged and disproportionate to the severity of the crime is certainly immoral.

There's a lot else going on in this thread but just wanted to throw in my two cents.

Since they did not commit a crime--which entails voluntariness, consciousness of the difference between right and wrong, and so on, that is, which entails being of a legal age and acting--there is nothing moral about punishing them.

Here's an idea!

1) End the welfare state

2) Dissolve national borders - true freedom of association

zxcvxcvzxc wrote:

Since they did not commit a crime--which entails voluntariness, consciousness of the difference between right and wrong, and so on, that is, which entails being of a legal age and acting--there is nothing moral about punishing them.

Having to live in Mexico isn't punishment.

It's actually quite nice. wrote:

zxcvxcvzxc wrote:

Since they did not commit a crime--which entails voluntariness, consciousness of the difference between right and wrong, and so on, that is, which entails being of a legal age and acting--there is nothing moral about punishing them.

Having to live in Mexico isn't punishment.

Not if you live in Chicago.

It's actually quite nice. wrote:

zxcvxcvzxc wrote:

Since they did not commit a crime--which entails voluntariness, consciousness of the difference between right and wrong, and so on, that is, which entails being of a legal age and acting--there is nothing moral about punishing them.

Having to live in Mexico isn't punishment.

Being forced to move against your will is punishment, as is any action that infringes on freedom of association and movement.

It's very difficult for illegal immigrants to take that much from the welfare state. It is usually low-skill legal immigrants who are the most costly.

I just don't buy that the illegal immigration issue is that big a deal.

Also, birthrates are dropping. Do we want follow Western Europe towards the fate of Japan?

Immigration is the only thing keeping our population stead.

Don't respond with BS Malthusian arguments. They are more tired than claims of viable communism.

Harambe wrote:

Also, birthrates are dropping. Do we want follow Western Europe towards the fate of Japan?

Immigration is the only thing keeping our population stead.

Our birthrate will skyrocket if we outlaw all abortions and birth control.

Similar cultures? Americans represent all people on the earth. Deportation means they lose their jobs, their houses, probably a lot of their possession, their friends, the only country they've ever known.

exthrower wrote:

Lets encourage immigrants that are educated, have money and are from similar cultures like the majority population...We don't need or want more landscapers and maids...As we are all seeing recently. diversity is a weakness, not a strength...We have devolved into a quibbling mess...

I actually disagree with this. We will always need people who are skilled at manual labor. I am more worried about cultures that do not value the law of the land over their own beliefs and suppositions.

If you want people with "similar culture," you can start with the family members of those who are already living here...

Except Sen. Cotton and Purdue want to take that away, and so does President Trump.

thejeff wrote:

exthrower wrote:

Lets encourage immigrants that are educated, have money and are from similar cultures like the majority population...We don't need or want more landscapers and maids...As we are all seeing recently. diversity is a weakness, not a strength...We have devolved into a quibbling mess...

I actually disagree with this. We will always need people who are skilled at manual labor. I am more worried about cultures that do not value the law of the land over their own beliefs and suppositions.

If you don't already know, you should look up the differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. That said, I realize that the majority of Muslims probably are not extreme orthodox believers that follow their religion to the letter.

Count Chocula wrote:

thejeff wrote:

I actually disagree with this. We will always need people who are skilled at manual labor. I am more worried about cultures that do not value the law of the land over their own beliefs and suppositions.

If you don't already know, you should look up the differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. That said, I realize that the majority of Muslims probably are not extreme orthodox believers that follow their religion to the letter.

We keep making the mistake of thinking that Muslims don't mean what they say, or that most of them aren't that extreme.

In 17 of the 23 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims say sharia is the revealed word of God.

There are virtually no Muslims among the DACA beneficiaries. So why are people discussing about Muslims on this thread?

Just Another LRC Idiot wrote:

There are virtually no Muslims among the DACA beneficiaries. So why are people discussing about Muslims on this thread?

Because Obama was importing thousands of Muslims from terrorist supporting nations without vetting them properly. It's part of the larger immigration debate and is relevant to the topic.