Was Herb Elliott really undefeated at 1500/mile

There was no testing in their era. But of course the fastest ones weren't the ones taking the opioids and speed! Perish the thought.

Epinephrine substitutes are the best PED possible, as they put the body into an extended fight-or-flight mode even the real thing can't maintain for long, allowing competition performance well beyond an athlete's ordinary ability. But tolerance builds quickly, and permanent neurological changes over time prevent speed from being effective for long. Short careers, races picked and chosen.

from memory wrote:

Corothers ran a faster last two hundred metres in coming second

ArmstrongLivs wrote

"He was so confident at Tokyo that when he found himself boxed in at 200m to go in the 800m he actually dropped back to extricate himself and then turned on the turbo-charge to go right around the field. It's kind of funny watching the guys floundering behind him in the straight, as though they have been caught in a jet stream - or the turbulence of a battleship, and they are bobbing around like dinghys. The 1500 was much the same. Everyone else in the race was waiting for his inevitable move in the final lap, and when it came it was like a tsunami, demolishing all before him and leaving the other runners scrapping desperately for the minor placings. A tank, for sure, but with jet-engines."

Not if you saw the race. Snell kicked past Crothers at about 200 from the finish and stayed in well in front to the tape. Crothers was nowhere near Snell at the finish. It's called winning easily. I suppose this is a bit like the argument that Coe really won the 800 at Moscow even though Ovett crossed the line first.

Bad Wigins wrote:

There was no testing in their era. But of course the fastest ones weren't the ones taking the opioids and speed! Perish the thought.

Epinephrine substitutes are the best PED possible, as they put the body into an extended fight-or-flight mode even the real thing can't maintain for long, allowing competition performance well beyond an athlete's ordinary ability. But tolerance builds quickly, and permanent neurological changes over time prevent speed from being effective for long. Short careers, races picked and chosen.

Elliot and Snell did use ped's. It was known as beer. It usually went with a pie. They were very sophisticated dopers.

Elliott is my athletic hero. When starting out as a runner age 14 (now age 61) I read his autobiography many times and demolished Percy's two books devoted to running over and over again.

Elliott is still the GOAT and Cerutty is a very much neglected authority on running and life in general. A few points need to be made.

1) Elliott scared of competition? Ridiculous! The day after his WR 1500 in 1958 (3:36) went to race the Swedish hero Dan Waern over a mile and won in 3:58. How many of today's stars would compete against top class competition the day after setting a WR?

2) Elliott had a short career, yes, but the amateur laws were very strictly enforced in Australia at that time - even by UK and American standards - and Elliott could not for long combine supporting a family and training as he felt he had to if he was to remain at the top.

3) Cerutty taught that competitive running was only part of life, it couldn't last forever. (Athleticism could and should but that wasn't the same thing at all.) What mattered was excelling at whatever you did; sport, art, music, business, whatever. After 1960 Elliott turned his attention to other things after a totally fulfilling running career.

1955 wrote:

Ryun made 3 as well but, alas, no medals.

Um, silver in '68?

history much? wrote:

1955 wrote:

Ryun made 3 as well but, alas, no medals.

Um, silver in '68?

Brain fart on my part. Thanks!

ok. you're right re the last 200m for Snell

Ovett clearly beat Coe in the 800m. Shame Bayi didn't contest the 1500. Different story then.

from memory wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Not if you saw the race. Snell kicked past Crothers at about 200 from the finish and stayed in well in front to the tape. Crothers was nowhere near Snell at the finish. It's called winning easily. I suppose this is a bit like the argument that Coe really won the 800 at Moscow even though Ovett crossed the line first.

ok. you're right re the last 200m for Snell

Ovett clearly beat Coe in the 800m. Shame Bayi didn't contest the 1500. Different story then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMYiXom88JE

??Bayi wasn't running in '64. Are you thinking of '76?

i was thinking 80. he ran the steeple

ovett not snell

from memory wrote:

i was thinking 80. he ran the steeple

Bayi chose to run the 3000SC because he knew he had no chance against Coe and Ovett.

Had he run the 1500m and tried to lead as he did in Christchurch, then the WR could have gone but Coe would still have won. Might have stopped Straub getting a medal.

Deanouk wrote:

from memory wrote:

i was thinking 80. he ran the steeple

Bayi chose to run the 3000SC because he knew he had no chance against Coe and Ovett.

Had he run the 1500m and tried to lead as he did in Christchurch, then the WR could have gone but Coe would still have won. Might have stopped Straub getting a medal.

I thought Bayi never regained his form of '74/75 after his illness. I think you are right, that probably no one was going to beat Coe in the 1500m at Moscow - even though, as he showed in the 800m, that he could run a tactically poor race. A fast pace probably would have suited him. I have my doubts about Straub. He was East German. Doping was policy in the Eastern Bloc.