Western States is a JOKE!! - Kilian Jornet

A lot of top African runners could adapt to destroying I've run Western States twice.

Africans could do very well at the Western States course, if given two years and putting $3 million out there for the prize. As someone mentioned it would take that long to train properly to really crush their race at this distance and on this kind of course. They woiuld have to learn the hydration and fueli ng ritual but they would.

But considering the Africans do virtuallyall of their training on trails at 8000' feet of altitude, how is this is different than the base training of many of today's best ultramarathoners. They don't do all of their miles on rocks above treeline.

The Africans would set the CR by almost or well over two hours is my guess. Make that a condition of winning $2-3 million, give it to ANYONE who breaks the existing CR by two hours, and give $3 million to anyone who breaks it by three hours, and trust me it would get done by the money-motivated Africans. Some might break down but others would thrive. They get injured a lot less than us white people, so you'd see their hardiness be an asset in this sort of race too. They would need the time to adapt their training but it would not be that mucn of a stretch.

Currently there is no financial incentive as they can win big money in major marathons, so they aren't doing what it takes to kill the ultra races. But if you think the Africans would not annihilate these record, even I will admit this is quite misinformed.

haha YO wrote:

Name one other one.

Ok, here is a partial list of performance sports where a $3,000,000 prize would hugely distort the economics and draw large numbers of highly skilled record chasers:

Aerobatics

Gliding aerobatics

Balloning

Wingsuit flying

Gliding

Hang gliding

Parachuting

Banzai skydiving

BASE jumping

Skysurfing

Wingsuit flying

Paragliding

Clout archery

Field archery

Flight archery

Gungdo

Kyūdō

Popinjay (sport)

Target archery

Biribol

Bossaball

Fistball

Footbag net

Football tennis

Footvolley

Hooverball

Jianzi

Newcomb ball

Peteca

Sepak takraw

Sipa

Throwball

Beach basketball

Deaf basketball

FIBA 33

Streetball

Water basketball

Wheelchair basketball

Bounceball

Korfball

Netball

Fastnet

Indoor netball

Slamball

Bat-and-Trap

British baseball - four posts

Brännboll - four bases

Corkball - four bases (no base-running)

Indoor cricket

Danish longball

Kickball

Lapta – two salos (bases)

The Massachusetts Game – four bases

Méta and longa méta (long méta) – Hungarian game

Oina – One (Two, Three, or Four)

Old Cat – variable

Over-the-line – qv

Pesäpallo – four bases

Podex

Rounders – four bases or posts

Scrub baseball – four bases (not a team game per se)

Softball – four bases

Fast Pitch

Slow Pitch

Modified Pitch

16 Inch

Stickball – variable

Stool ball – two stools

T-Ball

Town ball – variable

K-Ball

Vigoro – two wickets

Wireball

Wiffleball

Baton twirling

Scootering

Casterboarding

Freeboard (skateboard)

Longboarding

Streetboarding

Skysurfing

Streetluge

Mountainboarding

Sandboarding

Snowkiting

Swing boarding

Wakesurfing

Bodyboarding

Riverboarding

Skimboarding

Wakeboarding

Kneeboarding

Bocce

Boccia

Boßeln

Boule lyonnaise

Bowls

Curling

Klootschieten

Pétanque

Shuffleboard

Varpa

Candlepin bowling

Duckpin bowling

Five-pin bowling

Skittles (sport)

Curby

Dodgeball

Ga-ga

Keep Away

Kin-Ball

Prisoner Ball

Rundown (aka Pickle)

Yukigassen

Artistic cycling

BMX racing

Bobrun cycling

Freestyle BMX

Cyclo-cross

Crosscountry mountain biking

Downhill mountain biking

Freeride mountain biking

Dirt jumping

Slopestyle

Racing Bicycle (The Award of Records Sports)

unicycling

Skibobbing

Mountain unicycling

Laser tag

Carom billiards

Three-cushion

Five-pins

Balkline and straight rail

Cushion caroms

Four-ball (yotsudama)

Artistic billiards

Novuss

Blackball

Straight pool (14.1 continuous)

One-pocket

Three-ball

Seven-ball

Ten-ball

Rotation

Baseball pocket billiards

Cribbage (pool)

Bank pool

Artistic pool

Trick shot competition

Speed pool

Bowlliards

Chicago

Kelly pool

Cutthroat

Killer

Russian pyramid

Snooker

Snooker plus

Hybrid carom-pocket games

English billiards

Bottle pool

Cowboy

Obstacle variations

Bagatelle

Bar billiards

Bumper pool

Acro

Ballet

Ballroom

Color Guard, or Flag Spinning

Competitive

Ensemble

Dancesport

Flag Twirling

Flamenco

Hip-hop

Interpretive dance

Jazz

Latin

Lyrical

Modern

Musical Theatre

Pointe

Salsa

SloModern

Swing

Tango

Tap

Tribal dance

Barrel Racing

Campdrafting

Cross Country

Dressage

Endurance riding

English Pleasure

Equitation

Eventing

Equestrian vaulting

Gymkhana

Hunter

Reining

Show Jumping

Steeplechase

Team penning

Tent pegging

Western Pleasure

Casting

Noodling

Spearfishing

Sport fishing

Surf fishing

Rock fishing

Fly Fishing

Disc dog

Disc golf

Dodge disc

Durango boot

Double disc court

Flutterguts

Freestyle

Fricket – also known as disc cricket, cups, suzy sticks or crispy wickets

Friskee

Goaltimate

Guts (sport)

Hot box

Ringo

Ultimate (sport)

Aimtskachara

Beach soccer

Futsal

Indoor soccer

Street football

Paralympic football

Nine-a-side footy

Rec footy

Metro footy

Calcio Fiorentino

Gaelic football

Ladies' Gaelic football

Eight-man football

Flag football

Indoor football

Nine-man football

Six-man football

Sprint football

Touch football

Street football (American)

Hybrid football

Austus

International rules football

Kronum

Samoa Rules

Speedball (American)

Universal football

Medieval football

Ba game

Calcio Fiorentino

Cnapan

Cornish hurling

Kemari

Ki-o-rahi

La soule

Lelo burti

Marn Grook

Mob football

Yubi lakpi

Knattleikr

Beach rugby

Masters Rugby League

Mini footy

Mod league

Rugby league nines

Rugby league sevens

Tag Rugby

Touch Football

Wheelchair rugby league

Rugby union

American flag rugby

Mini rugby

Rugby sevens

Tag Rugby

Touch rugby

Rugby tens

Footvolley

Harrow Football

Powerchair Football

Volata

Artistic gymnastics

Balance Beam

Floor

High Bar

Parallel Bars

Pommel Horse

Still Rings

Sport aerobics

Uneven Bars

Vault

Majorette

Juggling

Parkour

Rhythmic gymnastics

Ball

Club

Hoop

Ribbon

Rope

Rope jumping

Sports acrobatics

Trampolining

Trapeze

Flying trapeze

Static trapeze

Power Tumbling

Group Gymnastics

Tricking

Frisian handball

Goalball

Sabaki Ball

Tchoukball

Team handball

Beach handball

Czech handball

Field handball

Torball

Water polo

Beagling

Big game hunting

Deer hunting

Fox hunting

Hare coursing

Wolf hunting

Kite buggy

Kite fighting

Kite landboarding

Kitesurfing

Parasailing

Snow kiting

Sport kite (Stunt kite)

Adventure racing

Biathlon

Duathlon

Decathlon

Heptathlon

Modern pentathlon

Pentathlon

Triathlon

Crossfit

Color Guard, or Flag Spinning

Drum and Bugle Corps (Classic)

Drum and Bugle Corps (Modern)

Indoor Percussion Ensemble

Competitive Marching Band

Geocaching

Orienteering

Rogaining

Letterboxing

Waymarking

Canoeing

Outrigger canoeing

Creeking

Flyak

Freeboating

Royaking

Sea kayaking

Squirt Boating

Surf Kayaking

Whitewater kayaking

Rafting

White water rafting

Gig racing

Coastal and ocean rowing

Surfboat

Dragon boat racing

Double scull

Quad four

Single scull

Straight four

American handball

Australian Handball

Basque Pelota

Fives

Eton Fives

Rugby Fives

Frisian handball

Four square

Gaelic handball

Jeu de paume

Palla

Valencian pilota

Ball badminton

Frontenis

Jai Alai

Matkot

Padel tennis

Paddle tennis

Paddleball

Pelota mixteca

Pickleball

Racquetball

Racquets

Racketlon

Rapid Ball

Real tennis

Soft tennis

Speedball

Speed-ball

Speedminton

Squash

Squash tennis

Stické

Table tennis

Xare

Endurance

Cross-country running

Half marathon

Sky Race

Tower running

Ultramarathon

Sprint (race)

Hurdles

Windsurfing

Ice yachting

Land sailing

Land windsurfing

Sailing

Windsurfing

Kiteboarding

Land Kiteboarding

Alpine skiing

Cross country skiing

Freestyle skiing

Nordic combined

Nordic skiing

Ski jumping

Skijoring

Ski touring

Speed skiing

Telemark skiing

Bobsleigh

Luge

Skibobbing

Skeleton

Toboggan

Clay pigeon shooting

Skeet shooting

Trap shooting

Sporting clays

Target shooting

Field target

Fullbore target rifle

High Power Rifle

Benchrest shooting

Military Service Rifle

Metallic silhouette

Practical shooting

Sport stacking

Cammag

Composite rules shinty-hurling

Ball hockey

Bandy

Rink bandy

Broomball

Moscow broomball

Field Hockey

Indoor field hockey

Floorball

Ringette

Pond hockey

Power hockey

Inline hockey

Ringette

Roller hockey (Quad)

Rossall Hockey

Skater hockey

Sledge hockey

Street hockey

Underwater hockey

Underwater ice hockey

Unicycle hockey

Hurling

Camogie

Lacrosse

Box lacrosse

Field lacrosse

Women's lacrosse

Intercrosse

Bicycle polo

Canoe polo

Cowboy polo

Elephant polo

Segway polo

Yak polo

Polocrosse

Shinty

Spongee

Free running

Freestyle Football

Parkour

Tricking

British bulldogs (American Eagle)

Capture the flag

Hana Ichi Monme

Hide and seek

Kabaddi

Kho kho

Kick the can

Oztag

Red rover

Tag

Airolo-Chasso

Race Walking

Bushwhacking

American handball

Australian handball

Basque pelota

Butts Up

Chinese handball

Fives

Gaelic handball

International fronton

Jorkyball

Racquetball

Rapid ball

Squash

Squash tennis

Suicide (game)

Valencian frontó

Wallball

Wallyball

Underwater football

Underwater rugby

Underwater Soccer

Water Polo

Canoe Polo

Backstroke

Breaststroke

Butterfly stroke

Freestyle swimming

Individual Medley

Synchronized swimming

Medley relay

Finswimming

Freediving

Scuba Diving

Snorkelling

Immersion finswimming

Underwater orientation

Andartza

Clean and jerk

Deadlifting

Benchpress

Powerlifting

Snatch

Squat (exercise)

Weightlifting

Pole vault

Steeplechase

Jumping

Triple jump

Long jump

High jump

Pole vault

Throwing

Discus

Hammer throw

Javelin

Shot put

Rowing

Wheelchair racing

Wood chopping

Cross-country skiing

Skipping

Dancing

Marching Band

Aizkolaritza

Atlatl

Bungee jumping

Boomerang

Chinlone

Competitive eating

Egg and spoon race

Footbag (hacky sack)

Haggis hurling

Kang Shanaba

Lumberjack

Pit Crew Challenge

Quidditch

Talong-itlog

Tetherball

Three-legged race

Sack race

Aggressive inline skating

Artistic roller skating

Bobrun skating

Ice skating

Inline speed skating

Figure skating

Rinkball

Rink hockey

Freestyle slalom skating

Roller derby

Roller skating

Roller speed skating

Short track speed skating

Skater hockey

Speed skating

Synchronized skating

Freestyle skiing

Ski flying

Skibob

Boardercross

Freestyle snowboarding

Snowshoeing

Skiboarding

Arm Wrestling

Ahel Karr

Arm Wrestling

Thumb wrestling

Bodybuilding

Finger Jousting

Powerlifting

Strength Athletics

Toe wrestling

Tug-o-war

Zourkhaneh

Air hockey

foosball

Tiddlywinks

Afghan Archery

Archery

Bhutan Archery

Billiards

Blowgun

Bowling Pin Shooting

Carom billiards

Pool

Calva

Conkers

Croquet

Darts

Archery

Horseshoes (horseshoe throwing)

Knife throwing

Lawn bowls

Matball

Pall mall

Petanque

Shooting

Trugo

Skittles (sport)

Skee ball

Pitch and putt

edonngg wrote:

A lot of top African runners could adapt to destroying I've run Western States twice.

You sound like two guys talking at the same time.

carrion wrote:

haha YO wrote:

Name one other one.

Butts Up

notthatfast wrote:

You don't seem to understand just how fast a 2:06 guy is. All it would take to shatter most 100 mile cr's is a sub-8 minute pace. These guys are going under 5. It would be like asking a 3hr marathoner to run 11 or 12's- piece of cake and so slow it's almost awkward. Regardless of the downhill's, they would crush current top ultrarunners. And for those comparing a 2:17 guy to the 2:06;s-2:08's..... they aren't running the same race. You are talking about being almost 2 miles ahead.

The problem with your argument is that you are assuming all ultras are the same. I will be the first to admit that ultrarunning is a fringe sport and the talent pool is small and shallow. And if a lot of world class athletes started entering ultras the existing records would be destroyed - and you are starting to see that with guys like Jornet getting into the sport.

(By the way I think the talent level in the marathon was fairly shallow as well until very recently where someone like KK could come out of obscurity to dominate on the world scene for a few years).

But I also think it is erroneous to assume that the fastest road runners would also be the best suited to long, mountainous ultras.

Here is an analogy: There was a lot of discussion in 2004 that the Oly marathon would open up the field to a lot more runners that would not have a chance to compete for a win on flat courses like London, with its pacers and generally better weather conditions. And in fact this proved to be the case as the wheels came off for both the men's and women's record holders.

So if this is the case even in marathons, wouldn't this situation be magnified many times for WS with 40,000 feet of elevation change and temps ranging from below freezing to 110?

Here is another was to think about it. Suppose you took the 100 fastest marathoners in the world and had them race over various types of courses. On a flat 100k course the order of finishing would probably be pretty close to the order of their marathon times, but you would have some runners in the both half that did better than some of the faster runners because they could handle the distance better.

Now put them on the WS course. The finishing order would still be correlated with marathon time but the relationship would be much weaker. Some runners in the bottom half would handle the hills and heat and downhill pounding for 60 miles much better than some of the fastest runners in the field.

Now put them on the Hardrock course and the correlation is likely to be even much weaker. After all, how will a fast 10k on the track help a ruuner trying to navigate a boulder field at 3am by headlamp carrying 5 pounds of gear.

So the guys that are likely be the best on those types of courses might not even be marathoners. They might be XC skiers, or even triathletes.

So the point is that the less an ultra resembles a pure running event, the more the playing field is leveled, and on a very mountainous course the balance begins to tip towards a guy like Jornet over a marathon runner that excels on flat cool courses.

And one final point about running downhill. Since aerobic capacity is not involved when running downhill the fastest marathoners do not have any inherent advantage. In fact, being light is actually a disadvantage going downhill.

One more analogy...

Put Geb, Jornet, Carpenter, and Bode Miller at the top of Pike's Peak and have them race to the bottom (and assume they all have equal knowledge of the course). Who gets down first? I would not put my money on Geb.

Maybe this is why Michael Wardian would probably destroy Krupica on any road course but cannot touch him on the trails.

concord wrote:

the less an ultra resembles a pure running event, the more the playing field is leveled

lolololol

In fact, being light is actually a disadvantage going downhill.

proof?

klopuyti wrote:

In fact, being light is actually a disadvantage going downhill.

proof?[/quote]

F = G Ma Mb / r2

klopuyti wrote:

In fact, being light is actually a disadvantage going downhill.

proof?[/quote]

My apologies, I should have been more explicit.

F = G ((Ma Mb) / r2)

Where,

F is the force between the masses,

G is the gravitational constant,

Ma is the first mass,

Mb is the second mass, and

r is the distance between the masses

concord wrote:

klopuyti wrote:

In fact, being light is actually a disadvantage going downhill.

proof?

F = G Ma Mb / r2[/quote]

Correct however Fa = Ma * A and therefore by arithmetic

A = (G * Mb) / r^2

i.e. acceleration towards the ground is independent of the mass of the runner. Throw a 130 lb Keyan and a 150 lb white guy down the slope WS and they will splat on the ground at the same time

carrion wrote:

concord wrote:

klopuyti wrote:

proof?

F = G Ma Mb / r2

Correct however Fa = Ma * A and therefore by arithmetic

A = (G * Mb) / r^2

i.e. acceleration towards the ground is independent of the mass of the runner. Throw a 130 lb Keyan and a 150 lb white guy down the slope WS and they will splat on the ground at the same time[/quote]

Yeah, in a vacuum. To my knowledge, the WS 100 is conducted with air present, so that the competitors have something to breathe in during the race. (They think of everything.)

Is the 15 minute 5k guy doing any marathon specific work? What is his long run. Never forget how important training specificity is!!

My buddy is a 16:50 5k guy. He routinely destroys faster road runners in grueling trail races. Why? He trains in the mountains; they train on flat roads.

You're full of crap. No 16:50 5K guy destroys faster road runners on trails. That's why Michael Wardian is a beast. He blitzes 2:17:49 and can win bronze over 100k road as well as win JFK.

Please show us an example of your buddy, please.

Has anyone in this thread actually run a trail ultra? I am guessing not many. Raise your hand if you have finished a 50mi 100k or 100mi trail race.

I say this because 99% of letsrun posters are fat washed up 40 year olds

These threads come up every year after Western States. Ultra runners are slow and they suck....track racers and Africans are fast....blah blah.

I have spent time running with Killian and the he is a x-factor in trail and ultra running. He can run the 8:50 mile pace all day long in a hundred miler, but he can also drop an 8:50 two mile whilst training 30 hours per week at a really slow pace.

Killian is great at whatever he runs because he has a huge engine, incredible power, speed, and endurance. To him Western States is just an event that he gets paid to go to and he enjoys. He could run the course in 13:30 if there was something at stake to do so. He just runs to win and have fun.

No disrespect whatsoever to ultra runners, but no American ultra runners are in his league as a pure runner and so they won't beat him 9 times out of 10. The reason they would beat him 1 time out of 10 is because there is just so much that can go wrong in an ultra race. Managing the fueling and other body variables makes it possible for the best runner to lose in any ultra distance race. This was the case with Killian last year.

This is why Jurek's seven in a row is impressive. Not because Jurek is a super stud runner. He wasn't/isn't. He's a 2:40-2:50 marathoner who can run slow all day, but.....and this is a big, impressive but....He put it all together on the big day seven years in a row. Anybody who does these killer long races knows how hard it is to manage all the variables.

Killian is such a great runner, that he doesn't have to pay attention to all the details as much as the lesser talented, but even he can fail over 100 plus miles.

Under Ultra wrote:

Imagine an 18:00 5K runner stating that he can easily take a 15:00 5K runner in a Marathon. That's the logic of many on this thread.

Actually, I think the logic is more about a 2 minute 800m runner claiming they can take on a 1:45 800m runner in a marathon.

You may not agree, but plenty of people think a 100 mile race is a fundamentally different race than a marathon and has a unique set of requirements. Yes, all things being equal the faster marathon runner will win, but the point is that all things are not equal.

Two things

You are an idiot. Killian cannot run sub 9:15 two mile so this 8:50 you mention is ridiculous

Second, until they start testing Killian I have no respect for him. Too many rumors about the kid in Europe. The races he is winning do not even test athletes. Thats sad for the sport of endurance athletics.

Under Ultra wrote:

You're full of crap. No 16:50 5K guy destroys faster road runners on trails. That's why Michael Wardian is a beast. He blitzes 2:17:49 and can win bronze over 100k road as well as win JFK.

Please show us an example of your buddy, please.

Nice try, but JFK is 70%+ roads. Wardian gets his ass kicked routinely in trail events with legitimate competition.

So I'm trying to get this straight...No 18 minute 5k guy could take a 15 minute 5k guy (20% differential) in a marathon (a little over 8 times the difference. So this means no 53 second 400 runner could beat a 44 second 400 runner (20% difference) in a 3200? Since I know a bunch of 53+ guys who can break 9, this means every 44 second 400 runner could break 9 in the 32. Right?

BS Detector wrote:

So I'm trying to get this straight...No 18 minute 5k guy could take a 15 minute 5k guy (20% differential) in a marathon (a little over 8 times the difference. So this means no 53 second 400 runner could beat a 44 second 400 runner (20% difference) in a 3200? Since I know a bunch of 53+ guys who can break 9, this means every 44 second 400 runner could break 9 in the 32. Right?

This is the correct logic. A marathoner is not a de facto ultra marathoner in need of proper motivation. A very tiny percentage of runners can run ultras, and even fewer want to. A 60 mile training run through the Rockies, is different than a 30 mile jog on the streets of Eugene. Who's up for a 300 mile week? Then another?