The official Rich Harden is SICK and the most underrated player in baseball Thread

Wins is a horrible measure of a starting pitchers ability. So much plays into that it isnt funny. Look at any meaningful number since the trade and Harden's are better. He pitched a 5.1 inning game and a 7 inning game. The 5.1 was short because they were up by 7 runs. Harden has pitched better so far admit it please.

Okay, now I know you are just trying to start fights on here. I get it finally. There is no way you could say that Harden has pitched better than CC. CC - 3 straight complete games, Brewers have won all his starts, Harden has pitched very good, but to say better than CC is completely wrong.

me o my wrote:

Wins is a horrible measure of a starting pitchers ability. So much plays into that it isnt funny. Look at any meaningful number since the trade and Harden's are better. He pitched a 5.1 inning game and a 7 inning game. The 5.1 was short because they were up by 7 runs. Harden has pitched better so far admit it please.

He has pitched great and I am thankful they picked him up. Looks like Reed Johnson will get some playing time now and Edmonds can rest his old bones a little. Hopefully A.S. can get it going (and Aramis) and they can get on a roll. The cards and brew-crew are not going away.

"Cub fans are the most obnoxious and least knowledgeable fans in MLB."

No, that would be yankee fans

"No, that would be yankee fans"

No, that would be cubs fans

Yankees fans are the most obnoxious in baseball. Many of them feel that because they root for a winner, they're better than the rest of us.

Unfortunately, this has also been true of some Red Sox fans in recent years. We should focus on enjoying our great team, instead of using our success to put others down. That's what Yankee fans do!

Anyways, Harden IS a great pitcher. Hopefully he can stay healthy for the Cubs. I'm just glad he's in the NL now.

CSO

Actually, the Yankees fans that I've met are quite knowledgeable. Can't say the same for most Cub fans, who seem more interested in working on their farmer's tan in the bleachers.

me o my wrote:

Wins is a horrible measure of a starting pitchers ability. So much plays into that it isnt funny. Look at any meaningful number since the trade and Harden's are better. He pitched a 5.1 inning game and a 7 inning game. The 5.1 was short because they were up by 7 runs. Harden has pitched better so far admit it please.

Wow, I'm not sure where to start. They were traded within a few days of each other and its only been a few weeks but:

CC has been a one man wrecking crew since the trade, much like he was leading up to the trade. 4 starts, 4 wins, 3 complete games, 33 innings, 20 hits, 1 hr, 8 walks, 31 ks, .85 WHIP, 1.36 ERA. Oh yeah and a homer and a double with the bat. He's hitting the other teams better than they are hitting him.

Harden has been good, just not near as good or valuable. 2 starts, no wins, 1 loss, 12.3 innings, 6 hits, 5 walks, 20 ks, .89 WHIP, .73 ERA. 0 for his career at bat - possibly the worst hitting pitcher I have ever seen.

Wins DO matter you see because since CC stayed in the game longer, he had more influence on if his team won or lost. I'll take my chances with CC and 8 innings giving up 1-2 runs over Harden with 5 innings and 0-1 run.

You probably don't know what VORP is because you look at batting average against, but VORP is a measure of how much value a player adds to a team. Since the trade CC's VORP is an incredible 15.1. Harden's is a respectable 6.9. Even so CC has been more than twice as valuable mostly because he can stand the stress of actually pitching and not throwing a few innings, letting the bullpen finish, taking a week off and repeating.

CSO wrote:

Yankees fans are the most obnoxious in baseball. Many of them feel that because they root for a winner, they're better than the rest of us.

I have to agree here. I've been to about half of the ball parks in the country and Yankee fans were by far the worst.

First off, many of them know nothing about any player who isn't on the Yankees. In the game I was at Joakim Soria came in to close for the Royals after Rivera blew it. I tried to explain that Soria was a very good young pitcher and they should respect him. I got "He sucks!" followed by a bunch of obscenities.

Boston fans on the other hand at least knew some of the players on the team they were playing, the Orioles, and cheered when one of the Oriole players made a great play. Yankee fans would have certainly booed and swore. Boston fans aren't as likable as they once were, but they are still ok.

Cub fans, while not mindless obscenity shouters like Yankee fans, are the biggest whiners in all of sports. Constantly complaining about how they're cursed and everything is against them. But the best reason to hate Cub fans is the way they treated Bartman, a die hard cub fan:

1. If a foul ball came right to where you were sitting, anyone would have tried to catch the ball.

2. Alou probably wasn't going to catch the ball anyway.

3. That's not why they lost game 6: Alex Gonzalez's error had a lot more to do with that.

4. There was still a game 7, with Wood pitching, where the Cubs got killed.

5. They probably wouldn't have won the world series anyway.

6. Dusty Baker was a horrible manager who destroyed Mark Priors career by letting him throw too many pitches that season. Not really part of the Bartman thing except Baker left Prior in too long in the game.

Wrong wins don't matter. Harden left his first start after 5.1 innings because the Cubs were up 8-0 I believe. It had nothing to do with Harden at all. They were so far ahead they decided to work the bullpen. His second start what can you say, he gave up one hit, a homerun, and lost in 7 innings. The most important stat in baseball is ERA because the pitchers primary job is to prevent the other team from scoring. They can't control offense period. 1/2 of what determines whether a team wins or loses is offense. Harden is giving up half as many runs per inning as sabathia. This is a significant difference.

Of course his Vorp is higher genius because he has pitched once more than Harden. From the way it appears you didnt know that had an influence on Vorp. Learn about the stats that you are using and come back with something useful. If you think CC has been twice as valuable you are a complete MORON. how can you bet more valuable than a guy who has pitched two games leaving one with an 8-0 lead and the other throwing a one hitter over 7 innnings.

Wrong. ERA is largely dependent on luck so it is vastly overrated as a statistic. WHIP and OPS against are better because the only thing a pitcher can really control is how many runners reach base and how hard they hit the ball. Since the trades, the numbers are virtually dead even: WHIP it's CC .85 to .89, OPS against its Harden .485 to .487. So the quality of innings has been about equal. The difference is CC has been able to pitch more because he is more durable and much more efficient. VORP, of course, takes into account how much he has pitched otherwise he'd be leading the NL. But then again, CC has pitched more than Harden and will continue to do so. They were traded within a few days of each other so they should have about the same number of starts. CC has 4 Harden has 2. CC has more because he does not need as much rest between starts. So yes, he has been twice as valuable so far due to his MUCH larger number of innings thrown.

Harden was not taken out of the game because they had an 8 run lead. Piniella is a good manager and was not thinking, "Man we got an 8 run lead so I think I'll wear out my bullpen by having them throw the last 4 innings." That's why Harden was allowed to strikeout in the bottom of the 5th and stay in the game - to save the bullpen. However, he gave up a double to the first hitter and walked the second and was taken out of the game because he had throw 96 pitches and was having command problems. This is why he does not go as deep into games - his command isn't as good.

Proving my point that CC has been more valuable, the Brewers have gone on an absolute tear since acquiring him. It sure is going to be great when the Brewers catch the Cubs tonight!!! And it will be thanks largely to the guy who has been the best pitcher in baseball for the past two months: CC Sabathia.

baseball dude wrote:

[quote]CSO wrote:

But the best reason to hate Cub fans is the way they treated Bartman, a die hard cub fan:

1. If a foul ball came right to where you were sitting, anyone would have tried to catch the ball.

2. Alou probably wasn't going to catch the ball anyway.

3. That's not why they lost game 6: Alex Gonzalez's error had a lot more to do with that.

4. There was still a game 7, with Wood pitching, where the Cubs got killed.

5. They probably wouldn't have won the world series anyway.

6. Dusty Baker was a horrible manager who destroyed Mark Priors career by letting him throw too many pitches that season. Not really part of the Bartman thing except Baker left Prior in too long in the game.

Cubs fans don't blame Bartman. In fact, we really don't even talk about him. Brewers, White Sox, and Cardinals fans are the only people who discus him. So if you are telling people to move, you are referring to the wrong group of people.

*move on

ERA is largely dependent on Luck? What? Are you serious? That is idiotic. Whip is not nearly as good a determinant of how well a pitcher has done, neither is OPS.

A pitcher does well when he allows few runs per inning pitched. That is it. That is the goal. If whip and ops were good determinants of how well a pitcher is pitching why do pitchers regularly intentionally raise their OPS and WHIP by walking a guy or pitching around him.

Just to repeat myself, the goal is to keep the runs per inning to a minimum. Period.

Oh Cubs are still in first.

Link to standings one year ago today. Mets, Brewers, Dodgers and D-Backs were the playoff leaders. Only one made it to the playoffs. Get back with us in October.

love the baseball chatter.

Will propose this:

If the cardinals can stay within 4 games of either the cubs or Brewers over the next two weeks, then they will make the playoffs HANDS DOWN; there is no better pitching tandem to be added in the second half than adam wainwright and chris carpenter.

100 years.

me o my wrote:

A pitcher does well when he allows few runs per inning pitched. That is it. That is the goal. If whip and ops were good determinants of how well a pitcher is pitching why do pitchers regularly intentionally raise their OPS and WHIP by walking a guy or pitching around him.

Just to repeat myself, the goal is to keep the runs per inning to a minimum. Period.

.

How do you think teams accrue runs? Magical fairy dust? You must either be 8 years old or the stupidest baseball "fan" on the planet.

me o my wrote:

ERA is largely dependent on Luck? What? Are you serious? That is idiotic. Whip is not nearly as good a determinant of how well a pitcher has done, neither is OPS.

Yes. ERA is very largely dependent on luck because it depends on when you give up your big hits. You could give up 220 hits and 35 homers in a season and still have a low ERA because most of the 35 homers were solo shots - luck. You can also give up an infinite number of runs without changing your ERA in an inning where an error prevented out #3. Another way is that you can leave runners on and have a reliever bail you out. But the biggest reason ERA is not a good metric is if you have one bad start, it can go up 2 or 3 runs.

For the record. Harden's ERA is now higher than CC's after Harden logged 5 solid innings of one run ball further proving that ERA is not a good metric of a pitcher's success. He will once again not get the win because he isn't strong enough to go deep into games.

CC is now better in every metric that matters. Even you should be able to see it.

His ERA is not better moron. After the trade Harden's is 1.06 I believe and CC's is 1.36.

Also CC's ERA for the entire season is 3.30. Harden's is 2.10. It isnt close. Harden has pitched better all season.

You can also give up 4 hits per inning and never give up a run. You could have a huge whip and OPS and never give up a run. Tell me who would you rather have at the end of the season

PLayer A: 0.00 ERA 4.0 WHIP, 2.0 OPS

Player B: 9.00 era with a 1.0 whip and a .333 OPS

Obviously player A because THE POINT OF THE GAME IS TO OUTSCORE your opponents not get more people on base.

Also to the other idiot, I understand why these numbers matter to a certain extent but they are not more important than ERA. The point of the game is to score more runs than the other team. There are plenty of pitchers who give up a good amount of hits but never string them together and so they win games. Trust me I know more about baseball than you. Please you start a thread about how underrated a guy is and then have him astonish everyone in his next three starts.