speed is only developed or achieved with max speed runs which are usually 20-40 meters in length max. running 200's is not speed training. also, speed is not achieved or developed on tired legs.
Here comes another one that knows everything. Go back to training sprinters, we are talking about distance here.
yea, don't know everything. I am a distance coach, but took level 2 sprints to improve my knowledge as a coach. I am not dumb enough to think running fast at the end of a workout gets you USED to running fast at the end of a race, makes me laugh. If only it was that simple.
Teaches you to run fast at the end of a race. Perfectly fine as long as you don’t overdo it. Tons of pro runners do this. It develops and maintains speed.
Interesting. Running fast on tired legs causes learning. Everything you do in life causes learning. Does it get you used to finishing slow if it doesn't get you used to finishing fast?
Here comes another one that knows everything. Go back to training sprinters, we are talking about distance here.
yea, don't know everything. I am a distance coach, but took level 2 sprints to improve my knowledge as a coach. I am not dumb enough to think running fast at the end of a workout gets you USED to running fast at the end of a race, makes me laugh. If only it was that simple.
Why would they do something that has been proven time and time again to work by hundreds of coaches? I mean if USATF Level 2 says to sprint 60s then it must be true (sarcasm).
This is a great way to get you injured. Work speed on speed days. Strides are acceptable just about every day. But when you have done a long tempo workout, let your legs recover before you do any speed. I have had numerous calf injuries and almost all of them came during or immediately after tempo runs. Your calves are really tired at that point and just need rest. Do real speed at the end of interval work. How well did constantly mixing slower stuff with speed at the end ever do Tinman's group? You can do higher quality tempos, quicker recovery, and better speedwork by not mixing the slower workouts with fast work. Just think about it. Are you really going to be accelerating from 6M tempo pace to whatever pace you do those 200s? No, you're going to be kicking off of a much faster pace held for a considerably shorter period of time in the vast majority of track races.
Why is everyone saying a 6 mile tempo is way too much?
If it were 6 miles @ half marathon/lactate threshold pace…yes, too much.
But “tempo run” does not always mean “threshold run”. It could have been 6 miles @ marathon pace. Or a progression run. Or anything like that. Tempo is a broad term.
So tempo runs can be 6 miles easily! But yes, hopefully OP not do a threshold tempo for 6 miles…those should only be 20 minutes straight (or broken up into segments if more volume is wanted).
I don't necessarily believe in the idea of "Learning to run fast on tired legs" I don't know if anybody really knows why things work, but when things are done enough, we find out if they can work.
Running 4-6 x 200 after a tempo is fine. I am a believer in training 5 paces, and a workout like this can help you keep contact with more paces, or what you might call more energy systems, within a period of time; while giving more recovery days in between.
It's something that's in my bag. I could go months without using it, but I've done cycles like this, and it can be safe and effective.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
. How well did constantly mixing slower stuff with speed at the end ever do Tinman's group?
If you account for the improvements in super shoes, nearly all of them were running better when being coached by Tinman. Drew has barely PRd and I would say all of that improvement is super shoes.
This is a great way to get you injured. Work speed on speed days. Strides are acceptable just about every day. But when you have done a long tempo workout, let your legs recover before you do any speed. I have had numerous calf injuries and almost all of them came during or immediately after tempo runs. Your calves are really tired at that point and just need rest. Do real speed at the end of interval work. How well did constantly mixing slower stuff with speed at the end ever do Tinman's group? You can do higher quality tempos, quicker recovery, and better speedwork by not mixing the slower workouts with fast work. Just think about it. Are you really going to be accelerating from 6M tempo pace to whatever pace you do those 200s? No, you're going to be kicking off of a much faster pace held for a considerably shorter period of time in the vast majority of track races.
Is it? When do Achilles ruptures occur based on your knowledge and research? I will tell you. Achilles ruptures occur doing explosive movement activity. A person is in danger of Achilles rupture when there is micro-damage to Achilles. Two-hundred meter repeats after tempo runs, not worth the risk.
Im on the fence here. It makes perfect sense to do some strides after Threshold runs and tempo runs. Not in my day, but that's what I see college and pros doing for sure. But, OP said nothing about effort. 200s means nothing to me. 6 x 200 with 45s rest at 1500, 800, 400 pace... how fast? So, I would agree doing 6 m tempo and HS kids doing 6 x 200 with almost no rest and doing them way too fast (which they all do) is possibly pushing the risk reward just a hair. Its not a big alarm or anything, but with 45s rest after 6m tempo, I would assume those 200s are conservative effort.
I don't necessarily believe in the idea of "Learning to run fast on tired legs" I don't know if anybody really knows why things work, but when things are done enough, we find out if they can work.
Running 4-6 x 200 after a tempo is fine. I am a believer in training 5 paces, and a workout like this can help you keep contact with more paces, or what you might call more energy systems, within a period of time; while giving more recovery days in between.
It's something that's in my bag. I could go months without using it, but I've done cycles like this, and it can be safe and effective.
I agree, but in my experience reality is 45s rest and 6 x 200 is risky after 6m if the troops are racing each other on every 200. Got to define the pace. We do 150s after most runs unless its an interval or speed day, but closer to 90sec rest at least. And I have to constantly tell them to slow down (and a few to speed up yes). 45 sec is < half of a "walk back".
I don't necessarily believe in the idea of "Learning to run fast on tired legs" I don't know if anybody really knows why things work, but when things are done enough, we find out if they can work.
Running 4-6 x 200 after a tempo is fine. I am a believer in training 5 paces, and a workout like this can help you keep contact with more paces, or what you might call more energy systems, within a period of time; while giving more recovery days in between.
It's something that's in my bag. I could go months without using it, but I've done cycles like this, and it can be safe and effective.
I agree, but in my experience reality is 45s rest and 6 x 200 is risky after 6m if the troops are racing each other on every 200. Got to define the pace. We do 150s after most runs unless its an interval or speed day, but closer to 90sec rest at least. And I have to constantly tell them to slow down (and a few to speed up yes). 45 sec is < half of a "walk back".
I wouldn't do 45s rest either. rest is overrated when you're supposed to be working on economy/turnover. For something like this, I'm fine with "whenever you're ready to go." Within reason of course. By the time the entire group is ready to go, we're gonna be looking around a ballpark of 2 minutes anyway.
I think somebody earlier said they look for 1600 pace, but okay if it gets closer to 800 pace. I agree with this.
I agree, but in my experience reality is 45s rest and 6 x 200 is risky after 6m if the troops are racing each other on every 200. Got to define the pace. We do 150s after most runs unless its an interval or speed day, but closer to 90sec rest at least. And I have to constantly tell them to slow down (and a few to speed up yes). 45 sec is < half of a "walk back".
I wouldn't do 45s rest either. rest is overrated when you're supposed to be working on economy/turnover. For something like this, I'm fine with "whenever you're ready to go." Within reason of course. By the time the entire group is ready to go, we're gonna be looking around a ballpark of 2 minutes anyway.
I think somebody earlier said they look for 1600 pace, but okay if it gets closer to 800 pace. I agree with this.
200s are always a good way to provide leg turnover after a large aerobic session, especially tempos. It is always good to touch on faster paced work without diving too deep in a high anaerobic demand, because it preps the body for more race specific work later on in the season. This is similar to why we do strides after easy runs: it primes the body for running faster.
Your coach probably knows what he/she is doing. If I'd question anything here, it would be the 6 mile tempo, which seems a bit long for a high schooler. But, doing 4-6 200m accelerations after a tempo workout is a standard way to help develop a kick, and this type of thing has been done for decades.
200s are always a good way to provide leg turnover after a large aerobic session, especially tempos. It is always good to touch on faster paced work without diving too deep in a high anaerobic demand, because it preps the body for more race specific work later on in the season. This is similar to why we do strides after easy runs: it primes the body for running faster.
45s rest is going to make this pretty anaerobic if you are running 1500-800m pace
i have had kids peak really well off something like this, but 6 miles is long. hopefully this was something close to an M pace tempo. 5 mile m pace with 200s or hills is textbook tinman, as far as i remember.
Every workout should end with 200s or hill sprints
Your coach is smart
Surprised to see this get so many upvotes. It seems like the in vogue thing to do is separate these two. Do lots of threshold in one workout and 200s or hills in a separate workout. Doing 200s after threshold doesn’t blunt the stimulus from the threshold?