Murphy is an even worse example. He's run 47.97 outdoors - I would be shocked if he had run under 47 in a relay situation, so where this "45 in a relay" comes from I have no idea. At this point with you throwing out numbers you might as well just claim 44 point and it would have the same plausibility. But the kicker he is a 3.36 runner. And that about ends the discussion really.
While I agree with most of your points, Murphy is credited with a 45.95 split from this meet:
But he wasn't even a 3:36 runner yet at that point, so he certainly wasn't a world class 1500 meter guy. Still, provided the relay split is accurate distance-wise (so, worth maybe 47 flat for an open 400), that is some impressive range combined with his 5000 of 14:15 from early that season.
Wow - hard to argue with that. But that is really surprising. And yeah - you are only going off that split. However...
I did notice that the guy handing off to him was a 46.40 guy, the guy after him a 47.0 guy. It's possible Murphy's 45.95 "split" isn't for 400m exactly due to the changeovers (ie. Gray the 46 mid guy ran as far as he could and Baldwin after him did the same). I guess that's why as someone else pointed out, a relay split doesn't really count due to these possibilities. If we are going off a standard conversion it's around 7 tenths of a second - I find it hard to believe Murphy was a 46.6 guy out of blocks in college - especially given he also ran 14.15 as you said.
But I will say that's an impressive find because not even that performance (the 400m relay) is in his WA bio so nice work there.
My closest is a guy I met with 48.9 speed who ran 1:49 and 4:05 in HS, he also was one on the best in XC in the whole state. I'd be shocked if actual world-class guys were much slower than 48.9
also have to understand that few 1500m people seem to run 400m (blocks), and relay splits can be all over the place (1-2sec faster). At the Pro level I get it, but at a developmental level (even College), seems to be not getting a complete picture. Running an all-out 400m at the end of practice just isn't the same thing. If I am coaching a 8/15 guy/girl, I want to know what their 400m is as well, even if it is just one legitimate race a season. That there are more 15/5k types at the World level mitigates that need to some degree.
also have to understand that few 1500m people seem to run 400m (blocks), and relay splits can be all over the place (1-2sec faster). At the Pro level I get it, but at a developmental level (even College), seems to be not getting a complete picture. Running an all-out 400m at the end of practice just isn't the same thing. If I am coaching a 8/15 guy/girl, I want to know what their 400m is as well, even if it is just one legitimate race a season. That there are more 15/5k types at the World level mitigates that need to some degree.
These things go in cycles. Currently, if a 19 or 20 year old gets his 1500m p.b. down to sub-3:36 and he hasn't raced 800m at an elite level, said twenty year old places all his energy attempting to train like J Ingebrigtsen. There will be 1:42-something 800m guys again, competing for gold, 1500m. If a sub-1:44 800m man defeats J Ingebrigtsen this summer, 2024 Olympic 1500m, only a few deadenders on here will care how J Ingebrigtsen trains.
One of the most overlooked aspects of the Norwegian training system is Mondays. On Mondays, they do speed development. Flying 50m or 60m sprints with long recovery. Drills. Plyos. I don’t know a lot of other programs that are doing that on a weekly basis like that. Wightman does. Laros probably. The Norwegians are also ripping 20 x 200m hills every week. Again, not something that elites are doing on a weekly basis throughout the year. Everybody focuses on the double threshold but I feel like this type of speed training does way more than people realize.
Well, you also have to factor in the unknown. Are they micro-dosing EPO. I would thing so. Taking away the drugs and the super shoes and they're just 3:54 milers.
One of the most overlooked aspects of the Norwegian training system is Mondays. On Mondays, they do speed development. Flying 50m or 60m sprints with long recovery. Drills. Plyos. I don’t know a lot of other programs that are doing that on a weekly basis like that. Wightman does. Laros probably. The Norwegians are also ripping 20 x 200m hills every week. Again, not something that elites are doing on a weekly basis throughout the year. Everybody focuses on the double threshold but I feel like this type of speed training does way more than people realize.
Well, you also have to factor in the unknown. Are they micro-dosing EPO. I would thing so. Taking away the drugs and the super shoes and they're just 3:54 milers.
EPO v. HgH & steroids: HgH & steroid use, easier to detect and more likely to get caught if using. HgH & steroids help performances the most, explosive movement sports and events and events up to about 2 minutes in duration.
EPO, even though many get caught using, easier to cheat using EPO than HgH or steroids.
EPO aids performance little, events less than 2 minutes and close to nil, events less than 30 seconds.
Both Brazier (1:42.3/3:34-35 1500m) and Murphy (1:42.9/3:36) split 45 point on relays.
However informative that is it simply reinforces the point that 800 specialists - as they are - are much faster over 400 then the top 1500 specialists - which they aren't.
There has only ever been ONE world class miler with confirmed 46 second speed, and he also ran 1.41 for 800m. Seb Coe
Incorrect. Turn off electronic only search results. S Coe is not the only sub-47 400m man who has raced elite 1500m &/or 1 mile times.
He said 46 speed - not sub-47 - which isn't in the same class - and Coe was the only 46 runner we know of who was also a top 1500/miler, and not someone who has merely raced "elite" times. You fairly shifted the goal posts there - twice.
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
Murphy is an even worse example. He's run 47.97 outdoors - I would be shocked if he had run under 47 in a relay situation, so where this "45 in a relay" comes from I have no idea. At this point with you throwing out numbers you might as well just claim 44 point and it would have the same plausibility. But the kicker he is a 3.36 runner. And that about ends the discussion really.
While I agree with most of your points, Murphy is credited with a 45.95 split from this meet:
But he wasn't even a 3:36 runner yet at that point, so he certainly wasn't a world class 1500 meter guy. Still, provided the relay split is accurate distance-wise (so, worth maybe 47 flat for an open 400), that is some impressive range combined with his 5000 of 14:15 from early that season.
45.95 should be rounded to 46. It is misleading to suggest he was anywhere near 45.
Also drafting in a 4 x 400m is an additional advantage, especially by an experienced middle distance runner.
Running start 400m relay split for middle distance runners is probably 1.5 seconds faster than legit 400m from blocks and running in own lane.
Also, 1st and 2nd leg on relay is impossible to get correct split times due to 3 turn stagger, and are reported as a combined time of 1st and 2 leg.
Seb Coe is the ONLY legit miler with legit 46 400m speed.
"Experienced md runners" don't run in 4x400 relays. Coe is always an exception - and he probably only did it about twice in his career. He was an incredible 800 runner who could also break wr's over the mile - like a Rudisha who could also double over nearly twice the distance.