The distinctions between them are irrelevant. The only facts that matter here is that you have two athletes in their mid-twenties leaping from relatively mediocre to amongst the very best in the world in one year. Their previous histories don't matter. 7 seconds improvement in the 1500 to 3.29 - the level that athletes like Ovett, Coe, Cram and Morceli ran - is a ludicrous improvement if you think either of those athletes are clean.
So you say. Katir’s jump was at age 22-23 so conveniently that’s “mid-20s” to you? Morceli ran 3:27 in old spikes. Coe and Ovett pretty obviously left some time on the table with their 1500 PRs. Coe’s 800 PB remains a huge mark. Crams PBs hold up quite well and it’s not like he was a dominant guy at the time. And they all didn’t have wavelight, superspikes and so on. I agree with your skepticism but the blanket statements are disingenuous.
Nordas is 23, and Katir is 24. That's close enough to the mid-twenties, and is nowhere near being teenagers, when big improvements might be expected.
Both runners are now in the same ball-park timewise as great former champions - and it isnt new spikes or wave-light that enables that. There are events - like the men's and women's 800m - that haven't improved despite those supposed advances. Nordas and Katir showed none of the kind of talent those former champions did as they progressed from their teens - and yet here we are. 7 seconds in a year over 1500m, at that age, puts them in a different athletic universe from the one they came from. Just how much improvement would they need to make for you to say you don't buy it? These are athletes competing in a sport that is regarded by WADA as in the same category for risk of doping as bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling - which quite simply wouldn't exist without doping and where no one could succeed without it.
Norway had a 40yr old win the 10k biathlon. IN THE RUSSIA Olympics, against some of the heaviest epo users of any sport. The highest VO2 max ever recorded was from a Norwegian, in the freakin 90s, when athletes where taking enough EPO to kill a horse.
Hahaha… The idea that Norway has no history of doping, is so dumb and racist, I would only expect to find it on Letsrun.
Their claim is evidence. For several runners to say the same thing suggests it is true.
No. It doesn’t suggest it’s true at all. Nor is it “evidence”. It’s hearsay.
It MAY be 100% correct. And it may just easy likely be 100% wrong.
He was hired to coach Australian runners and was fired by them when he suggested to them they needed to dope to succeed. No one has shown they lied about that so it can be taken they were telling the truth about what he said to them and why they got rid of him.
No. It doesn’t suggest it’s true at all. Nor is it “evidence”. It’s hearsay.
It MAY be 100% correct. And it may just easy likely be 100% wrong.
He was hired to coach Australian runners and was fired by them when he suggested to them they needed to dope to succeed. No one has shown they lied about that so it can be taken they were telling the truth about what he said to them and why they got rid of him.
No one has shown they told the truth either so it can be taken they were lying about Aouita in order to get rid of him.
He was hired to coach Australian runners and was fired by them when he suggested to them they needed to dope to succeed. No one has shown they lied about that so it can be taken they were telling the truth about what he said to them and why they got rid of him.
No one has shown they told the truth either so it can be taken they were lying about Aouita in order to get rid of him.
As reported at the time:
Australian sports officials will investigate claims that a former distance-running coach pushed performance-enhancing drugs.
Steeplechaser Melissa Rollison claims legend Said Aouita suggested she take human growth hormone.
Rollison's claims support Victorian runner Mark Fountain, who initially made drug allegations against Aouita in 2004 in a letter to the Australian Sports Commission (ASC).
Aouita's two-year reign as Australia's distance-running coach ended the same year and the Moroccan Olympic 5000m champion has not returned to Australia since.
Steeplechaser Melissa Rollison claims legend Said Aouita suggested she take human growth hormone.
Rollison said her 18 months as an athlete under Aouita were a nightmare, saying he recommended she take human growth hormone at a US training camp in 2003.
"He talked about it every day," Rollison told the Herald Sun newspaper.
"We had to go to America because that is where you get HGH.
"I said right at the start that I wasn't interested and he was like 'everyone else is on it, so why wouldn't you want to do it?'
"I said I wanted to make it the proper way but he then tried to convince me HGH wasn't illegal".
So you say. Katir’s jump was at age 22-23 so conveniently that’s “mid-20s” to you? Morceli ran 3:27 in old spikes. Coe and Ovett pretty obviously left some time on the table with their 1500 PRs. Coe’s 800 PB remains a huge mark. Crams PBs hold up quite well and it’s not like he was a dominant guy at the time. And they all didn’t have wavelight, superspikes and so on. I agree with your skepticism but the blanket statements are disingenuous.
Nordas is 23, and Katir is 24. That's close enough to the mid-twenties, and is nowhere near being teenagers, when big improvements might be expected.
Both runners are now in the same ball-park timewise as great former champions - and it isnt new spikes or wave-light that enables that. There are events - like the men's and women's 800m - that haven't improved despite those supposed advances. Nordas and Katir showed none of the kind of talent those former champions did as they progressed from their teens - and yet here we are. 7 seconds in a year over 1500m, at that age, puts them in a different athletic universe from the one they came from. Just how much improvement would they need to make for you to say you don't buy it? These are athletes competing in a sport that is regarded by WADA as in the same category for risk of doping as bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling - which quite simply wouldn't exist without doping and where no one could succeed without it.
Nordas is 24, Katir is 25. Still struggling with subtraction?
No one has shown they told the truth either so it can be taken they were lying about Aouita in order to get rid of him.
As reported at the time:
Australian sports officials will investigate claims that a former distance-running coach pushed performance-enhancing drugs.
Steeplechaser Melissa Rollison claims legend Said Aouita suggested she take human growth hormone.
Rollison's claims support Victorian runner Mark Fountain, who initially made drug allegations against Aouita in 2004 in a letter to the Australian Sports Commission (ASC).
Aouita's two-year reign as Australia's distance-running coach ended the same year and the Moroccan Olympic 5000m champion has not returned to Australia since.
You got more than you deserve.
Normally one have to ignore your "unknown" Melissa and alike because they are nothing.
Aouita had 40 years of training services and it's only your Melissa is the one to be trusted.
Nordas is 23, and Katir is 24. That's close enough to the mid-twenties, and is nowhere near being teenagers, when big improvements might be expected.
Both runners are now in the same ball-park timewise as great former champions - and it isnt new spikes or wave-light that enables that. There are events - like the men's and women's 800m - that haven't improved despite those supposed advances. Nordas and Katir showed none of the kind of talent those former champions did as they progressed from their teens - and yet here we are. 7 seconds in a year over 1500m, at that age, puts them in a different athletic universe from the one they came from. Just how much improvement would they need to make for you to say you don't buy it? These are athletes competing in a sport that is regarded by WADA as in the same category for risk of doping as bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling - which quite simply wouldn't exist without doping and where no one could succeed without it.
Katir ran 7:35 at age 22, which would’ve been a big deal in the 80s mind you. His big breakthrough was at age 23 a few months after his b-day. What does it matter his current age considering he’s made slight improvements since then (common in the 23-25 age range)? Again I agree with your skepticism but not every guy running 3:29 nowadays is going to be a phenom. It’s what a 3:31 was then without the lights, spikes, perfectly paced races and so on.
They both have basically the same progression, so why does Nordas get a soft-soap interview with LRC but Katir just gets shade from Rojo? They both went from 3:36 to 3:29 (or 3:28.76 in Katir's case) in one year but Rojo heavily implies he thinks Katir is cheating. What gives?
The difference is easy.
Nordas is from Norway and has grown up being coached by Gjertman Elite in their state-of-the-art Ingetraining program.
Mo Black Cat Kit Kat Katir is a Spaniard and has nine lives. He's also a little taller than Nordas and has better PRs.
They both have basically the same progression, so why does Nordas get a soft-soap interview with LRC but Katir just gets shade from Rojo? They both went from 3:36 to 3:29 (or 3:28.76 in Katir's case) in one year but Rojo heavily implies he thinks Katir is cheating. What gives?
It's just the perception of a right-wing racist. Don't look for any other sensible reason, because there isn't.
Nordas is 23, and Katir is 24. That's close enough to the mid-twenties, and is nowhere near being teenagers, when big improvements might be expected.
Both runners are now in the same ball-park timewise as great former champions - and it isnt new spikes or wave-light that enables that. There are events - like the men's and women's 800m - that haven't improved despite those supposed advances. Nordas and Katir showed none of the kind of talent those former champions did as they progressed from their teens - and yet here we are. 7 seconds in a year over 1500m, at that age, puts them in a different athletic universe from the one they came from. Just how much improvement would they need to make for you to say you don't buy it? These are athletes competing in a sport that is regarded by WADA as in the same category for risk of doping as bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling - which quite simply wouldn't exist without doping and where no one could succeed without it.
Nordas is 24, Katir is 25. Still struggling with subtraction?
Minor details which show you have no argument to counter mine. But it does confirm my previous observation they are in their mid-twenties. Own goal. Thank you for that.
Australian sports officials will investigate claims that a former distance-running coach pushed performance-enhancing drugs.
Steeplechaser Melissa Rollison claims legend Said Aouita suggested she take human growth hormone.
Rollison's claims support Victorian runner Mark Fountain, who initially made drug allegations against Aouita in 2004 in a letter to the Australian Sports Commission (ASC).
Aouita's two-year reign as Australia's distance-running coach ended the same year and the Moroccan Olympic 5000m champion has not returned to Australia since.
You got more than you deserve.
Normally one have to ignore your "unknown" Melissa and alike because they are nothing.
Aouita had 40 years of training services and it's only your Melissa is the one to be trusted.
She wasn't the only Australian athlete to make that claim about him but I guess you can't read that far. You also have no evidence she is lying.
Nordas is 23, and Katir is 24. That's close enough to the mid-twenties, and is nowhere near being teenagers, when big improvements might be expected.
Both runners are now in the same ball-park timewise as great former champions - and it isnt new spikes or wave-light that enables that. There are events - like the men's and women's 800m - that haven't improved despite those supposed advances. Nordas and Katir showed none of the kind of talent those former champions did as they progressed from their teens - and yet here we are. 7 seconds in a year over 1500m, at that age, puts them in a different athletic universe from the one they came from. Just how much improvement would they need to make for you to say you don't buy it? These are athletes competing in a sport that is regarded by WADA as in the same category for risk of doping as bodybuilding, weightlifting and cycling - which quite simply wouldn't exist without doping and where no one could succeed without it.
Katir ran 7:35 at age 22, which would’ve been a big deal in the 80s mind you. His big breakthrough was at age 23 a few months after his b-day. What does it matter his current age considering he’s made slight improvements since then (common in the 23-25 age range)? Again I agree with your skepticism but not every guy running 3:29 nowadays is going to be a phenom. It’s what a 3:31 was then without the lights, spikes, perfectly paced races and so on.
I mention their age because the mid-twenties is not when top athletes can be expected to make out-of-the-park improvements naturally. Nor is there any accepted data that confirms a 2-second improvement over 1500m from new spikes and lights, or that record-breaking races are achieved now through better pacing than in the past. Would wave-light have improved El G's 3:26, run with almost perfectly even laps? That 2-secs improvement you see is easily the effect of doping.
If "better" technology was making such a difference then it is oddly not observable in some events, such as the 800m - or even the 1500m and the mile, where the best times were achieved in the late '90's.
Like most fans, you won't see what you don't want to.
I mention their age because the mid-twenties is not when top athletes can be expected to make out-of-the-park improvements naturally. Nor is there any accepted data that confirms a 2-second improvement over 1500m from new spikes and lights, or that record-breaking races are achieved now through better pacing than in the past. Would wave-light have improved El G's 3:26, run with almost perfectly even laps? That 2-secs improvement you see is easily the effect of doping.
If "better" technology was making such a difference then it is oddly not observable in some events, such as the 800m - or even the 1500m and the mile, where the best times were achieved in the late '90's.
Like most fans, you won't see what you don't want to.
And I counter 22-23.5 is disingenuous to call mid-20s. There is plenty of growing evidence to suggest superspikes/wavelights are quickening times. The longer/slower you go the bigger effect (explaining your 800m counter), which explains Katir excelling more in the 3-5k relative to times historically. Ditto Jakob. El Guerrouj had 1050m of good pacing in his WR, my point on times was to say the 80s were not optimized. Watch the fastest races from the Brits and it’s clear. I don’t disagree there was doping in the 90s and believe El G more than likely doped, but I’d actually agree with you that pacing then was quite excellent. It was not in the 80s, and frequently not in the 00s.
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