Anyone want to train an older guy in the 800/1500?

Thanks EuroCoach. Will start incorporating some of this next week I think.

OK, let's say you've never run an 800 or, it's early season and you really don't know what to shoot for time wise and split wise.

Maybe you're older and each year doesn't lead to faster times.

You do a workout like this and you have an idea.

I will tell you this- since your lack of knowledge doesn't seem to grasp workouts that give you an idea of where you are:

If you can "just run 1 800" in a workout and it's the same as you would race- you're doing it all wrong.

Sounds like you need a coach.

All I can say is that it worked for two 1:55 guys and two 1:59 guys and a 2:00 guy.

It works for me within 1-2 seconds and I only do 2 sets.

You're only resting 1 minute at the most. Younger guys did 3 sets.

You're sarcasm is actually stupid- I'm giving you real results. Believe me- it worked and it wasn't put together to do that.

I just figured I'd use the average times to pick the team.

This was a Monday, the race was Thursday.

Other friends in the local running community have used it and they say it worked for them.

You at least have an IDEA of how to structure your race.

Nice work! In my experience, your Friday 600 session suggests that, with a couple of weeks of sharpening, you could run a sub-2 800. For the first race of the season, it is probably a good idea to seed with a 2:03 as it usually takes a few races to run a good one, but later on, try to get in a faster heat, otherwise you may end leading from start to end.

Hey HHW, glad to see things have been coming along well for you. I had a couple questions.

1. Based on those 1000s and your prior fitness, I'd have to assume you're in at least 16:30 5000 shape right now, yeah? Probably getting closer to 16:00 shape again?
2. Do your maintenance runs (M, W, Sa where there is no specific efforts) feel a bit on the slow side to you? Or is that a function of the first few miles being slow and that brings the average pace down?

I get the feeling you are training well within yourself. Not in a bad way, especially since you aren't in your 20s anymore, but does it feel like you're being really disciplined so as not to overextend?

2:03.5 seems like a solid seed time for the first race back. Current 400 ability x 2.25 is usually a decent ballpark of 800 ability for someone with solid aerobic fitness, but until you've actually raced I'd agree it's better to go a bit conservative on the seed time so as not to get in a heat where you blow up the first lap. Better to be in contention for the win and feel like you could have run faster in a higher quality field for that first race back.

1. I was actually just wondering about this. My guess is I would be around 16:10-16:15 in a 5k right now. I wouldn’t be surprised by high 15s though.

2. I’m doing all my runs at 4:30-5am so usually the first mile is 8:20-8:30 while I’m still waking up an then I make up ground on the average pace from there.

3. I definitely feel like I’m working out mostly at a 7-8/10 effort. I think it’s actually because I am adding 200s at the end of every workout so I am always trying to leave something in the tank. Then I get to the 200s and 2-4 of them just isn’t that many so I end up more at the moderate effort level.

4. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised with anything from 2 flat to 2:10. It’s just been such a long time since I have run one I’m not sure what to expect. 2:03.5 seemed like a reasonable estimate of my fitness. It is the featured event at this meet so would expect the faster heats to be pretty competitive (sub 1:50?) so hopefully there are some folks to run with more at my level.

1. OK yeah, I'd agree. Generally speaking I'd say a hard to complete but still doable 8 x 1000 w/~90" rest will give a good idea of 5000 fitness. I'm pretty confident you could do that workout in 3:12s if you really got after it, though don't see any need for that right now since the gains are still coming pretty easy most likely. If you do end up doing a higher-effort workout like that closer to your limit, it's probably the type that would be perfect to do about 8-10 days out from a race as mentioned in an earlier post.

2. I figured that was the case. It would prob take me 2-3 miles to warm up at that time of day if I could even manage to put my shoes on and get out the door.

3. Keep it up. You're putting money in the bank consistently and no reason to change this investment strategy of sorts.

4. If there will be 1:50 type guys there (in different heats) it sounds like 2:03.5 is truly going to set you up for success.

Interestingly enough my Tuesday workout is 5x1000 w/ 2/3/4/5 rest starting at 5k pace and working down to maybe 2-3k pace. That’ll probably be a pretty good check on the aerobic end of things.

Not sure how you want to structure your racing season, but assuming you are planning to start racing seriously in 3-4 weeks, this workout seems a bit too aerobic and too hard to be really useful for 800m racing at the point in time. It seems to me more like a 5K peaking workout.

It is not that in the peaking phase you should not touch 5K-3K pace, but this is usually in a "support" workout, which is supposed to be relatively light, while the hard workout of the week is run at 800m-1500m pace.

Maybe for you the workout is relatively easy and it is all good. I would be wrecked for 3-4 days and that would end up being the only really hard workout of the week.

Second workout is 4x(2x600) with 2 between reps and 4 between sets. I was actually debating an LT workout instead of the 1ks. I agree it seems like a tough one and it seems a bit early to back off the strength/LT side of things.

What would you recommend?

Generally speaking, it is my impression that you have not run much longer than 200m at 800m pace, which is totally fine in base phase. Assuming you are planning to race 3-4 weeks from now, it would be about time to introduce some longer reps at 800m pace and make these the key workout of the week.

Some examples could be:

6-8x600 with 2-3 min rest where the first 400m are run around mile pace or slightly slower and the last 200m at 800m pace.

4x(300+300) with 100m jog between the 300s and 3-4 minutes between sets

Closer to race day, you could try 4-5x400 at 800m pace with 3-5 min rest or 3x600 (as fast as you can run them, which would probably be between 800m and mile pace) with 5 min rest. It may take a while to recover from these two workouts, so don't do them too close to race day.

Full disclaimer: I am not familiar with your training schedule beside what you have posted and I don't really know your race calendar; also, I am a pure 800m runner. while you seem to have a pretty good aerobic base, so your optimal training may be slightly different from mine. It is up to you what to do with my suggestions. Good luck!

Thanks. I was planning on racing:

5/20 (800), 6/3 (200/400), 6/17 (800), 7/22 (800)… So I still have a ways to go. I take your point though and will look to adjust next weeks harder workout to include something that is a touch more 800 specific.

I ended up switching out the 5x1000 workout for 2 easy + 1.5 @ LT1 + 5x300 w/ 2' off after 1/3 and 4' off after 2/4.

I was planning on doing 6 or 3x(2x300) but came in a little hot on the first 2 and ended up cramping up in the calf in the last 30m of the 5th one so called it a day.

This seemed like the write workout 10 days out or so. Thanks for all of the suggestions.

Kind of a sketchy week. Aggravated my calf doing quick 300s on on Tuesday. Feels better now but was a bit touch and go. 300s @ 800 or faster pace were interesting.
Was solo with my two youngest this weekend so planned day off Saturday.
Race next Saturday.

M - 6 @ 7:50

T - 7 as 2 up + 1.5 @ 5:40 + 5x300 @ 42.2/42.7/42.5/43.5/44.5. Hurt calf last 50 of 5th on and jogged it in. Canceled 6th.

W- 6 @ 7:35
Th - 6 @ 7:14

Fr- 8.5 as 3 up @ 7 + 3.5 @ 5:34 + 4x200 @ 29/32/29/31 + 1 down. Just testing calf on 200s. Felt clear.

Sa - off
Su - 9 @ 6:45. 6:20s towards end.

Total - 42.5 miles

Best of luck for your calf. Hopefully was just a warning, but be careful!

IMHO, the 300s workout was a good one (how much rest did you get?), but, unless you think you are in 1:53 shape, 42.5 for the 300s is too fast. a consistent 44-44.5, maybe with a shortish rest, would have been a slightly better workout and less risky.

Rests were 2/4/2/4. It was too fast. No excuse, just poorly paced. I suspect my calf also wouldn’t have blow up if I was running actual 800 pace as well.

Good week. Solid workout on Tuesday and a good rust buster on Saturday. This was my first track meet in 18 years and first 800 in 23 years so really didn’t know what to expect but ended up having a blast. Can’t wait for the next meet in 2 weeks.

Somehow landed in the elite women’s heat so it was me + 6 very fast women and a pacer. I walked onto the track and looked around and was like “am I in the right race?”.

The weather was pretty rough, gusty and raining pretty hard so decided to take advantage of the pacer for the first 400. I took it out in 60 and closed in 60 winning the heat by about 8 seconds. I’m pretty sure the splits were 30/30/30/30.

This was a good result for me I think and I suspect I have 2-3 seconds in the bank with competition and a more aggressive first lap. Assuming I can build some fitness in the next month or two and I’m hoping I can land a good time mid-summer.

M - 6 @ 7:16

T - 7 as 2 up + 1.5 @ 5:47 + 2x(200/300/400) w/ 1.5’/3’/5’ rest. Hit 29/46/59/30/44/57. Felt strong.

W - 6 @ 7:09
Th - 5 @ 7:21 + 8x10s hill sprints
Fr - 5 @ 6:57 + 3x200 strides (30/31/28)

Sa - 2 up + 800 in 2:00.39 + 1 down

Su - 8 @ 7:21. Hilly.

Total - 43 miles

I registered for another 800 on 6/3 and am planning on a third on 6/17. I think I am going to keep LT work in play for the next few weeks. I get a lot of confidence by not letting the aerobic stuff erode. I will use the second workout for more 800 specific stuff. Will also keep hill sprints and flying 100s.

Plan is…

Week 1:
Q1 - 10x800 @ LT + 4x200
Q2 - 4x400 @ 800 w/ 5’ off

Week 2:
Q1 - 1.5 @ LT1 + 2x(3x300) w/ 2’ off and 5’ off between sets.
Q2 - Race

Week 3:
Q1 - 8x1000 @ LT + 4x200
Q2 - 1.5 @ LT1 + 2x(500/300) broken 800s w/ 60’ between and 8’ between sets

Week 4:
Q1 - 3x400 w/ 5’ off
Q2 - Race

Thoughts?

Great job with your race! I agree that in a race with better weather and more competiton you could shave 2-3 seconds or more. Next time, try going out in ~58, you may still be able to run 60 on the second lap. You have two more race lined up in the next few weeks, which is great.

My only comment is that it is difficult to keep in peak shape for months. Once you get in race season, the aim is to just get on race day in the best possible conditions, in this respect, it is also difficult to build a lot of fitness in this period, because this means getting to race day already fatigued. You have to choose between building fitness or racing at the best of your abilities. I am not sure what your schedule is after 6/17, but if I were you, I would probably try to peak in the next 2-3 races and then take a month or two away from 800m racing, perhaps run and race just for fun (like the mile or the 5K) and then start to build up to run a good time in the fall-winter season.

Also one comment on your 300s session, next time try taking only 1 min rest instead of 2 (like 1/4/1/4). This will force you to run closer to 800m pace as you won't have enough time to recover from the previous 300 (which is the purpose of the workout, run a fast 300 on tired legs).

Thanks for the feedback. I was hoping to run well at masters nationals on 7/22 so I am still a few months out. The idea was to try to perform well over the next 3 weeks without peaking in then get in a solid mini block. Does that change your opinion at all?