... even if Ryun were a lower mileage 800m guy, 1968, Ryun most likely would have raced for bronze. Under no circumstances can I know see Ryun beating BOTH Doubell AND Kiprugut, 800m.
I used the 1998 Daniels book Marathon Program A for my last two halfs. when i started i was a 1:27/8 half. After two cycles i was hit 1:17. So it worked for me.
If JD isnt all that - what program should i use if im hoping to get under 1:16 this June?
To get a bronze in the 800m in the Olympics, you gotta make the Olympic team. Ryun didn't make the 800 team in 1968 and didn't make it in 1972. Don't think he tried in 1964.
How would lower mileage have helped Ryun make the 800 squad in 1968 or 1972?
By the way, I can't find any footage of the 1972 US Olympic Trials 800m final. There used to be bits and pieces, some in color, some black and white, some slo-mo, some regular speed. Now there's nothing as near as I can tell. Would love to see a full video of the race. Anybody?
Arbitrary pace prescription is crap. I'm sure Daniels helped a lot of people create a system for organizing their workouts, but his "pace system" is incredibly rigid and limiting and isn't rooted in any physiologic principles.
Do you mean how he works out paces based on VDOT? If so, that's a weird take as even coaches who don't like the Daniels schedules will generally say that VDOT is a good way to work out appropriate paces for different workouts
Yes. Some coaches might say it's a good way to prescribe paces -my hs xc coach and college coach used them religiously - and I don't disagree that they can be a nice guide, however there's a lot of problems with VDOT. The most obvious issue being, that VDOT doesn't take into consideration factors that affect performance on a given day like weather, terrain, hydration, muscle soreness so making exact predictions based off a performance that could have been weeks prior seems silly. Second, the idea that a shorter event can predict longer events is also false, especially for mid-d runners. When you take all these factors into account, trying to aim for the intensity itself during each rep (which is what prescribed paces are supposed to do) instead of aiming to run a pace becomes a lot better and more precise than aiming for a prescribed pace in order to elicit the exact stimulus you want.
No wonder he’s never created a good runner! And you all still follow his training? Does anyone but this ‘Smoove’ chap actually like his training? Long run rules? Choosing random paces that have nothing to do with any systems or race pace. Random R, I, T????? 20 minute tempos? What is all this stuff? Pathetic….
You are a disrespectful, ignorant, and rude troll.
No wonder he’s never created a good runner! And you all still follow his training? Does anyone but this ‘Smoove’ chap actually like his training? Long run rules? Choosing random paces that have nothing to do with any systems or race pace. Random R, I, T????? 20 minute tempos? What is all this stuff? Pathetic….
Daniels is just a smart way to train for the most part and has general guidelines that keep runners improving. It was marketed as a special formula to sell books but ultimately it's just a logical training program. Most people start with that and tweak it from there to fit their desires.
This right here. I was talking to him (I'm from near Cortland, NY) I told him what I did with my high school teams and he said that basically it was his program at the high school level. It was simply logic- build a base over the summer, then add in some tempo runs- we did hard days where they had target times based on times run on our courses over the years, then hills, then "speed" work as in longer reps and then shorter reps with the rest interval decreasing as the season progressed.
You can also use the formula for adult "recreational" runners- maybe do two workouts a week- hills, track work, races can be tempo.
He probably doesn't do enough volume for elite runners but I know a lot of people who went to Cortland an improved tremendosly.
If you take the bones of his schedules then it's a pretty good guide to getting better. His 5/10k schedule is just one speed session, one threshold session, and a long run per week. It's not revolutionary but it will make most people better. Some people say it's too intense, like Pete Magill whose schedules look very light by comparison. Even the people who question Daniels will tell you his work was influential but he doesn't periodize in the way that most coaches like to these days.
As for the 20 minute tempo: why is that such an issue? I see that or something similar in most schedules. Sometimes it's broken up into 2x10 minutes or 4x6minutes with short rest but it amounts to the same sort of stimulus.
I think one thing that "distresses" some people is it's simplicity. I know a guy who thinks he's a coach and actually charges hobby joggers to come up with workouts.
He's supposedly some Daniels Guru who read the book and paid $200 to pass an online test.
He comes up with all these complicated workouts based on this and that V dot and all that crap. He makes it complicated to justify taking money from people.
Daniels is simple- that's what the people I know who were coached by him in college love most- they said it was simple and they improved.
This guy has more runners quit because their hobby jogging felt like a job.
It’s good stuff for beginners and more high school level. However, you’re right there’s no elite runners doing 20 minute tempos. He wears a cool cowboy hat and has sold his brand though. Have to give him that.
LOL. Anyone in coaching can tell you with the exception of few extreme examples, every coach and competitive runner is running Daniels or something based off Daniels whether they think so or not. Lets not constantly rip people just for the sake of being different. He laid the actual scientific groundwork (didnt just wear a cowboy hat) for everything we do, at least MD up. That is rare in sports. Even his tables are remarkably accurate. Granted things have changed over the years, like longer tempos, but don't kid yourself, you are doing Daniels. Also, I vaguely recall Daniels saying 20 min was good amount of time to "get some benefit". I don't think he put a ceiling on it, at least in the last edition.
Do you think Tesla was full of crap because we have evolved in some areas?
Arbitrary pace prescription is crap. I'm sure Daniels helped a lot of people create a system for organizing their workouts, but his "pace system" is incredibly rigid and limiting and isn't rooted in any physiologic principles.
I actually laughed at this one, so I do hope it was meant to be a joke!
In case it wasn't, I take it you don't know what he is a doctor of?
Human physiology has not changed at all in a few decades. Everything that was true in the 70's is still true today. Kind of like the Bisquick recipe!
Exactly, that is his significance, that his work is based on physiologic principles, not anecdotal 50 x 400m workouts.
This may be a dumb question, but how do many modern coaches periodize in a way that is counter to what Jack Daniels suggests? I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm genuinely curious. If you have anything I can read on the subject please give me some suggestions.
This may very well be different than the answer high hopes will give but I'll give one.
In Daniels' formula he essentially focuses on just 1 variable every phase, either R, T or I. He appears to bring in a different variable as his phases change.
It's more than focus, for example in phase 3 of his high school cross country program he'll seem to emphasize I pace. Where are the R workouts or T workouts in this phase in his book? Does he not recommend any?
During their summer training for XC could a HS runner do a bit of 200s at mile pace once in a while, perhaps cruise intervals every week and 600s at 5k pace every 10 days or so or would this hurt their development?
At one of his talks he stated that as a scientist he changes just 1 variable at a time. No doubt he and other good coaches know how to tinker with more than 1 stimuli at a time but in writing a book for beginning runners and coaches it makes sense to give what seems like a dogmatic formula.
He actually covers this specifically, you do stuff from last phase +new stuff. It doesnt always seem to show up that way in his printed plans IMO, but he specifically states to touch on every system as you go.
As I have learned here, runners do not like research because it is easy to poke holes in research (see: Resistance Training Improves Running Performance).
Alan
Suprisingly no downvote so far, quite untypical for Letsrun. Maybe i did something wrong. :) However, the mentioned 20min threshold run reduced the VO2max of both 800m runners. An interesting finding.
I based my teams' training on Daniels and we won several XC team and individual track championships.
One thing I will add to this discus'n is this... A lot of times athletes think they need to do these killer interval workouts, tempos that are more like time trials, no easy runs, and everything has to be @ goal pace. The problem with training this way is you'll eventually burn out, break down, and get injured.
You want to race your best at the furthest meet you can qualify for. For some that's the Olympic Final, others it's simply qualifying for Natty's. Killing it early in the season or being a workout hero or setting records in dual meets isn't what we want. We want to build our athletes so they're ready to rock come championship season. You're hardest training should be 3-4 weeks before your final race. After that you reduce your mileage and slightly increase intensity so you can peak when it counts!