LOL i just checked my high school cross country team's results from their meet last week. I'm from a small town in the northern Midwest. There is only ONE 10th grader running varsity men's and he got 27 minutes in the 5K course that I remember being a pretty quick, flat course. I was like, 'what this is totally wrong', but I checked the roster and yep, that's the sole rep for a varsity team that used to have more than enough runners to at least field a team and then some. guess CC really fell in the sh*tter up there.
This thread has resonated with me. My spouse and I weren't willing to become teachers in the public school in order to coach. It is such a lame policy that many public schools have, and the kids are the ones who unknowingly get the shaft. Anyway, we started a non-traditional XC program, and at first it was really slow going. We welcomed anyone who was willing to join. The problem is that most treated it as their PR and they (along with their parents) thought that a 4 mile run was crazy far. Needless to say, the results were not great. If we had a boy break 17 or a girl 20min, it was a big deal. We finally got a boy that was very self driven and was able to run in the 15s (though his track times were not as good as we would've hoped, but he was in the middle of the covid era and also had to contend with untimely injuries and illness). BUT, I think he was instrumental in that a lot of younger runners saw what he did and thought maybe they could do the same. It is interesting that seeing a peer do the work and get results is 100X more effective than a coach telling them (even though the coach is correct). So, now, we finally have what I consider to be a "normal" team with one who will dip under 16 soon, a couple of others in the mid16s, then a couple of others in the 17s, and a lot in the 18-20min range. If I would have suggested building up to an hour of running a day in the summer months just a few years ago, it would have been completely rejected as crazy talk, but now that is what the better / older ones do. Getting that cultural "buy-in" is not as easy as one would think (at least in my experience). Ironically, now that we've finally got a "normal" team and positioned to maybe take it to the next level, we are thinking about hanging it up. We feel a bit old, and it has been a long slog. We'll see.
To the poster going as "coach", I can't imagine the restraint it takes to be silent and watch the overall uninspiring regimen. I don't think my wife and I could do it. But, I understand where you're coming from - it's not an easy call on deciding how to best handle. And to the person who said that it doesn't even sound like you love your son - screw them. I bet they have never had any kids and have no idea whatsoever of the dynamics involved.
My friend coaches a High School in rural Idaho where they have 15 runners and ZERO people capable of breaking 7:00 for a mile.
I feel for him, usually you have a couple of kids who are competitive.
Yeah I don't believe this at all. My 8th grade gym class had a dozen kids capable of breaking 7 in the mile. Its one thing to run sub 18, which will require some level of talent/training, and another to run under 7 for a single mile. Like two weeks of running will get even some of the most untalented athletes sub 7.
Everyone's 8th grade is full of skinny athletes!
20-30% of HS kids are too overweight to even jog a full mile. You won't change that in 2 weeks.
Lots of people who actually run 4-5x a week cant run a sub 7. I see if every day in the Army.
Club / homeschool... not associated with any particular school. "Non-traditional" was probably not the best term to use. Apologies.
I deeply despise the school policies that completely sideline parents who have a passion / experience with the sport while giving the assistant football coach (who could not give less of a crap) full reign over the program. Actually, I despise all the policies that essentially say "we're mom and dad when your kid is at school - you're mom and dad when they are at home".
To the poster going as "coach", I can't imagine the restraint it takes to be silent and watch the overall uninspiring regimen. I don't think my wife and I could do it. But, I understand where you're coming from - it's not an easy call on deciding how to best handle. And to the person who said that it doesn't even sound like you love your son - screw them. I bet they have never had any kids and have no idea whatsoever of the dynamics involved.
Well the way he talks about his kid makes it sounds like he isn't proud of him. Believe it or not, some kids run cross country for reasons other than the desire to run sub-15's. It's not that big of a deal if your kid is enjoying getting into the sport and isn't excelling immediately.
And it sounds like Coach knows his stuff so if he cares that much then he's in a perfect position to give his kid some training guidance.
To the poster going as "coach", I can't imagine the restraint it takes to be silent and watch the overall uninspiring regimen. I don't think my wife and I could do it. But, I understand where you're coming from - it's not an easy call on deciding how to best handle. And to the person who said that it doesn't even sound like you love your son - screw them. I bet they have never had any kids and have no idea whatsoever of the dynamics involved.
Well the way he talks about his kid makes it sounds like he isn't proud of him. Believe it or not, some kids run cross country for reasons other than the desire to run sub-15's. It's not that big of a deal if your kid is enjoying getting into the sport and isn't excelling immediately.
And it sounds like Coach knows his stuff so if he cares that much then he's in a perfect position to give his kid some training guidance.
Whoa. I'm very proud of my son regardless of his performances. It's just that he doesnt really understand what training entails and I don't want to second guess his coach to him.
He knows he has a bit of ability but he's going to be let down when he races as his workouts are not sufficient for any type of success. My kid hasn't run faster than a 20 minute 2 miler. I don't want to tell my kid he needs to run more, I want everything to come from him.
I also know his coach, I retired from the same system. The only thing I've done is work out with my son to get him stronger and do a bit of mobility work as they don't do any of this as a team.
Again it's not about me and I don't want his participation to be about me. That's why I've stayed out of it. I also never put him in any track programs, he's played soccer and basketball until the pandemic.
This thread is about poor programs and why kids aren't running well. I gave a first hand example.
By the way, this past Sunday, after lifting, HE asked me to go on a run with him and we ran for 35 minutes, his longest continuous run.
Alright - I took another look, and it looks like I was quick to be overly defensive. You said "like" and not "love" and you also included an lol, so I shouldn't have been nearly so quick to jump down your throat about it. You generally have a point that I agree with. At the same time, it might be a little presumptuous to judge coach's relationship with his son (and how he thinks about him) based on a few posts. It is quite plausible (if not likely) that he can love and be proud of his son while also not love and be proud of everything his son does or every attribute his son displays. It sounded to me like he was just being real. As a parent, you can tell when your child is giving real effort vs just half-assing it. Or, maybe his son just doesn't like running and is searching for his own thing (which can be frustrating, too, and I would tend to give the parent a little leeway bc they probably mean well even if not getting it exactly right... i know my parents were imperfect lol). And, lastly, it can be even more frustrating to be in a position to be able to help (like coach may be in), but if the school's coach isn't having it, and if the child isn't ready to accept it, and if the wife is saying "keep it shut", then he's pretty much SOL, I think. Of course, any or all of those dynamics can change, but it's hard to be patient and silent when "the answer" may seem so easy / obvious. It appears to me that Coach is, ironically, choosing to put other things ahead of excelling immediately (as you suggest) and then just venting a little in a few posts on LR (because a lot of parenting aint easy even when you love, like, and are proud of your kid). It's not necessarily dislike or disapproval when a parent suggests that good effort, taking initiative, etc etc typically portends toward good and desirable results (for the child's benefit). But, I do understand that in today's social media world, one is to always praise, if not idolize, their kids' every thought, decision, and move.
Yeah, you're wayyy more patient than me, which is probably a good thing. I respect not "second guessing" his coach (which is admirable), but I don't think I would hesitate to say something like, "Yeah, if you want to run fast the following things are pretty much non-negotiable... A, B, C, etc. I'm sure your coach would agree, but it has to come from within. It has to be something that you want to do and not told to do..." Regardless, all the best... i've been there, am there, and will likely be there again lol
I went to a relatively large school (1500-2000 student range) in a low population state
I was the kid who talked all my middle school soccer friends into going out for XC instead freshman year, then promptly quit myself. Many of them did stick with it though and I kept up with the team due to having so many close friends on it. I think of that team as the epitome of average high school team.
Many kids spent 4 years showing up to practice most days, goofing around and running 20-30 minute times. Probably the majority of kids in this category. It was a big team so there was a full varsity squad, full JV squad, some freshman/sophomore squad and the slow kids /social runner squad.
There was the group of guys who did wrestling most of the year would run cross since it was their offseason. Many of those kids were tough as nails and were running ~19 minute XC times after a couple seasons, despite only running for a quarter of the year. Other guys started out slow (25+) stuck with it moderately(they showed up to practice, tried pretty hard but didn't run in the summer or weekends) and were running around 19-22 their upper years. These wre like JV guys
the guys who started out slow (mid 20s first meet freshman kind of guys) and stuck with the program seriously, all of those guys broke 18 by senior year but few were breaking 17.The guys breaking 17 XC were typically running sub 20 their freshman year if not faster. I don't think anyone broke 16 while I was in school, but there were 1 or 2 guys a few years older than us who had done it and the older guys on the team still talked about them like legends. One or two of the guys in that slow-but-dedicated category went onto run sub 16 and even one guy sub15 in their 20s.
And then there is a school like State College High in PA. In a recent tri-meet on a 5K course, it ran about 40 boys (none under 18min) and about 25 girls (one under 20min). Huge quantity participation numbers given the size of the school, not so much quality. Of course, demographics likely play a big role. Many of the runners are kids of PSU faculty and staff, others are children of employees of businesses associated with PSU and the higher education industrial complex. Is there a certain degree of college application padding going on in State College that is driving participation (no-cut XC is a great way to be a high school student athlete), or is there just a high interest in running in Happy Valley?
My buddy was a standout coach at a perennial powerhouse in cross country. The school used to field large teams. My buddy resigned this year in frustration. His teams went from talent rich to apathic kids merely participating to check a college application box. The school and parents expected that he would award everyone varsity letters regardless of attitude, work ethic, or whether they even provided advanced notice that they would not be at a practice or Saturday invitational.
He often used to fill scoring spots with multisport athletes who started the season in shape and would dramatically improve with proper training stimuli. The multisport kids were generally running to stay in shape for basketball/wrestling/swimming, etc. They were a great addition to the team because they were fit, motivated, tough, and tended to set a good tone in practice. Within the last five or so years he stopped getting most/any of the multisport athletes. Kids are generally sport specific now, playing their primary sport year round. With the demands of their primary sport they no long have time to participate in other scholastic sports.
The demands from other programs has also become more intense. The school's new theater program director barred students from missing theater practice for sporting events. The band program started entering more festivals and competitions that interfered with kids ability to participate in athletics.
Yeah, it can get really difficult. There are so many road blocks.
- Kids getting no sleep
- Late nights with their friends
- Poor diets
- Parents always pulling them from practice for ridiculous things
- Spirit week
- Blood drives
- Parents and others pressuring them causing major anxiety issues
- Other teams poaching our athletes
- Kids doing more than one sport and not recovering from their runs.
-Etc…
I get frustrated sometimes but then I bring myself back with the understanding that other programs are facing the same challenges as I am with there teams. If I can do better by staying attentive to the issues then my team will be better than theirs. It takes great patience.
And then there is a school like State College High in PA. In a recent tri-meet on a 5K course, it ran about 40 boys (none under 18min) and about 25 girls (one under 20min). Huge quantity participation numbers given the size of the school, not so much quality. Of course, demographics likely play a big role. Many of the runners are kids of PSU faculty and staff, others are children of employees of businesses associated with PSU and the higher education industrial complex. Is there a certain degree of college application padding going on in State College that is driving participation (no-cut XC is a great way to be a high school student athlete), or is there just a high interest in running in Happy Valley?
Wow, and that's a beautiful area for running. My family visited Penn State in late August for 5 days. We stayed at the Hampton Inn and jogged onto and around the campus. We also jogged up Tussey mountain, not a bad place for repeats.
Club / homeschool... not associated with any particular school. "Non-traditional" was probably not the best term to use. Apologies.
I deeply despise the school policies that completely sideline parents who have a passion / experience with the sport while giving the assistant football coach (who could not give less of a crap) full reign over the program. Actually, I despise all the policies that essentially say "we're mom and dad when your kid is at school - you're mom and dad when they are at home".
How are you able to enter meets? If you don’t mind, what region are you in?
I don’t think the climate is right where I am to do this but they have with swimming.
I would be in favor of going to a club system. There is too much BS with the school systems to develop athletes with everything they need.
I don’t really follow them but my high school is still pretty good. Usually do well at state and nxr regional. They sent a team to nxn a year or two before Covid. Large team, good coaching, year round running. Without those three things consistently having a good team is not very likely.
Even at California states, there are some athletes over 18 flat in the boys race at Woodward Park, just ten or so in the D1 race, though. At the same time, this is how many teams and individuals averaged or ran under 18 in 2021:
If you're just looking at one race, some of those above-18:00 performances will be better athletes having a terrible day. That happens routinely to a percentage of athletes. If I said that X% of runners with an all-courses PR under 18:00 would run over 18:00 at state, what would you say X is? Not 0 for sure. I would actually like to see stats on this, if anyone's got them
For people with 17:59 PRs I'd guess without proof that above 50% will fail to break 18 at their state meet. But faster athletes have more room for error to perform slower than their PR and still break 18.
That said, I've seen athletes with legit sub-17 PRs run over 18:00 on a harder course at state. Those 18+ minute times were due to a number of factors, not just the course.
Also, I think underperformance at state championships is actually more common than it is for random midseason meets, at least for mid-tier runners. The pattern is that they focus all their energy on the qualifying meet, probably even try to peak for that meet, barely make it, then have little left for state.
Even disregarding peaking, I think this would be true even with an athlete in the same condition for both meets, due to regression towards the mean. That is, you're more likely to qualify if you have a GREAT performance for your ability level, than if you have an average performance for your ability level. But then for the next level up, it's more likely that you will have an average day than a great day, so you perform "worse". (And you beat yourself up for not doing as well, of course, even though it was the most likely outcome even if you did everything right.)