ESPN: "Caster Semenya listed to run at worlds in Oregon" (5000m)

RunRagged wrote:

Llll wrote:

Ok, they get tested in first world countries. Then what? They decide not to play sports? There has to be a few Americans and Europeans, but it does seem way less common of a condition outside Africa

The last two Europeans known to be XY with DSDs to compete in elite level international women's sports were women's World Cup alpine ski champion Erika (now Erik) Schinegger of Austria and Maria Jose Martinez Patino.

Schinegger, who has a DSD similar to Semenya's, was booted out of skiing shortly before the 1968 Winter Olympics by Austrian sports officials, and decided to bow out gracefully. He had surgery to "fix" his genital anomalies and went on to marry a woman with whom he fathered a daughter with no medical assistance. There's a good documentary about him on YouTube. He's a very decent, likable guy.

Martinez Patino, who has AIS (sounds like pretty extensive AIS, but it might not be CAIS - the records are unclear) sued the IAAF and won the right to compete in women's sports. The loophole Martinez Patino's lawsuit created allowing athletes with one kind of XY DSD to compete in women's events has been opened up wider and wider to allow in athletes with a host of other, very different kinds of XY DSDs.

Martinez Patino - who has served as a consultant to the IAAF and IOC on eligibility in women's competition - is an interesting case. On the one hand, MP says a main reason MP belongs in women's sports is because MP posses "femininity" and "a sure sense of womanliness" and MP's "womanhood" has been tested. On the other hand, MP doesn't think that other athletes with other XY DSDs are so womanly. MP testified against Chand in Chand's lawsuit against the IAAF and Indians sports authorities. Just goes to show there is no solidarity and unanimity in "the DSD community." No real community to speak of either. Not surprising since DSDs comprise 40 or so very different conditions.

The last time that the IOC did mandatory genetic testing on athletes seeking eligibility in women's events was at the 1996 summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. 8 athletes were found to be XY, DSD - but all were given clearance to compete. Six of them had already had their testes removed - which means their DSDs had already been diagnosed and "treated." (I say "treated" because in DSDs, as in most conditions, it's really not a good idea to remove healthy organs - and gonads are really vital organs. Most people with DSDs who keep their gonads do better over the course of their lives in terms of physical health, mental health and intimate relationships than those who undergo gonad removal.)

I imagine there are a lot of XY athletes with CAIS in women's elite sports. Because they can't use the T their testes produce, it gets converted to estrogen and they develop an outwardly female phenotype. They have some advantages over XX female athletes - XY CAIS persons are usually taller and narrower in the hips, plus no cycles, hormone fluctuations, periods, PMS, PMDD, pregnancies, gynecological problems. But if CAIS athletes were the only XY DSD athletes allowed into women's sports, a lot of people would be okay with that. It's all the athletes with other XY DSDs like 5-ARD - most of whom can father children - that are the bone of contention in women's sports, not athletes with CAIS.

Llll wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

The last two Europeans known to be XY with DSDs to compete in elite level international women's sports were women's World Cup alpine ski champion Erika (now Erik) Schinegger of Austria and Maria Jose Martinez Patino.

Schinegger, who has a DSD similar to Semenya's, was booted out of skiing shortly before the 1968 Winter Olympics by Austrian sports officials, and decided to bow out gracefully. He had surgery to "fix" his genital anomalies and went on to marry a woman with whom he fathered a daughter with no medical assistance. There's a good documentary about him on YouTube. He's a very decent, likable guy.

Martinez Patino, who has AIS (sounds like pretty extensive AIS, but it might not be CAIS - the records are unclear) sued the IAAF and won the right to compete in women's sports. The loophole Martinez Patino's lawsuit created allowing athletes with one kind of XY DSD to compete in women's events has been opened up wider and wider to allow in athletes with a host of other, very different kinds of XY DSDs.

Martinez Patino - who has served as a consultant to the IAAF and IOC on eligibility in women's competition - is an interesting case. On the one hand, MP says a main reason MP belongs in women's sports is because MP posses "femininity" and "a sure sense of womanliness" and MP's "womanhood" has been tested. On the other hand, MP doesn't think that other athletes with other XY DSDs are so womanly. MP testified against Chand in Chand's lawsuit against the IAAF and Indians sports authorities. Just goes to show there is no solidarity and unanimity in "the DSD community." No real community to speak of either. Not surprising since DSDs comprise 40 or so very different conditions.

The last time that the IOC did mandatory genetic testing on athletes seeking eligibility in women's events was at the 1996 summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. 8 athletes were found to be XY, DSD - but all were given clearance to compete. Six of them had already had their testes removed - which means their DSDs had already been diagnosed and "treated." (I say "treated" because in DSDs, as in most conditions, it's really not a good idea to remove healthy organs - and gonads are really vital organs. Most people with DSDs who keep their gonads do better over the course of their lives in terms of physical health, mental health and intimate relationships than those who undergo gonad removal.)

I imagine there are a lot of XY athletes with CAIS in women's elite sports. Because they can't use the T their testes produce, it gets converted to estrogen and they develop an outwardly female phenotype. They have some advantages over XX female athletes - XY CAIS persons are usually taller and narrower in the hips, plus no cycles, hormone fluctuations, periods, PMS, PMDD, pregnancies, gynecological problems. But if CAIS athletes were the only XY DSD athletes allowed into women's sports, a lot of people would be okay with that. It's all the athletes with other XY DSDs like 5-ARD - most of whom can father children - that are the bone of contention in women's sports, not athletes with CAIS.

So if I understand correctly, they basically banned DSD athletes

RunRagged wrote:

Llll wrote:

So if I understand correctly, they basically banned black DSD athletes from the 800m and 1500m which allowed white Europeans such as Muir and Hodgkinson to win medals to the detriment of black 200m and 5000m runners (where white European women do not stand a chance for a medal). Got it.

…

India always has a lot of athletes with the sorts of XY DSDs that Semenya and Chand have coming up the junior ranks each year. None of them are black or black African. But after these athletes are medically evaluated and shown to be XY with these specific DSDs, India boots them out of women's sports. Or tries to. Chand hung in there, sued and won before the CAS. But I suspect the next case with an XY DSD athlete like Chand or Semenya will turn out very differently. Lots of people in the sports world who've been looking into the issue of XY, DSD inclusion in the female category of sport seem to be thinking that maybe XY athletes with male sex chromosomes, testes, male levels of T and male-typical sensitivity to T who've been through male puberty of infancy and adolescence really don't belong in women's sports at all.

RunRagged wrote:

Llll wrote:

Who are all these Indian DSD athletes that come up every year in the Junior ranks that got booted out by the Indian federation (going against the IAAF rules)? Can you give me 5 or 6 names?

Even if I knew the names - which I don't - I wouldn't reveal them. That's a violation of their privacy that would serve no purpose.

If you're interested in the prevalence of XY, DSD athletes in Indian women's elite track & field and whether their participation is a cause of concern for officials and a cause of distress for female athletes, a good place to start is with what "queen of Indian track & field" P.T. Usha has to say on the topic.

After the Swiss supreme court upheld the decision of the CAS in the Caster Semenya case, Usha predicted that a significant number of Indian middle-distance runners competing in girls' and women's track would switch events so they could compete in women's international events without having to comply with the then-new T restrictions WA/IAAF placed on XY DSD athletes - in exactly the same way that well-known XY DSD athletes like Niyonsaba, Mboma, Masilingi and Semenya have done since the so-called "Semenya rules" came in force:

“I think we have some such 20 athletes in our country. Most of them are running in the 400m and 800m with one or two in the 1500m,” said Usha in a chat with Sportstar on Wednesday.

Strangely, while the World Athletics' regulations for legally female athletes with differences in sexual development (DSD), who have male chromosomes (XY) and circulating testosterone in the male range, bar such women from running in elite international competitions if they don't lower their testosterone levels, it does not stop them from competing in national or State meets.

“If they are allowed in national meets, it will spoil the chances of other girls. First of all, when our natural girls see such athletes they will feel demoralised,” explained Usha.

“The right thing to do is to ensure that such athletes are not allowed in Nationals also. What is the point in allowing them to run in national meets if they cannot compete internationally?”

Link:sportstar.thehindu.com/athletics/pt-us...