For a 400m track; the race is only ended when one runner passes the other one.
Who do you think would be the best and how long would a race last?
Could a 800m specialist just gun it and try to put 200m on a slower runner in an all-in?
Would Kipchoge just slowly cook all opponents for 30k?
I'm guessing it would last around 5000m (depending of the opponents); probably entertaining, I wonder if that has ever been done.
I was initially going to say a marathon champion like Eliud Kipchoge because even if he could only run 1:55, 3:45 and 13:05, no one is going to have 200m on him at those distances and as it gets longer he is going to catch the other guy but then I realized he would be very vulnerable between 10k and half marathon to someone like Joshua Cheptegei or Jacob Kiplimo.
So I am probably going to go with Jakob Kiplimo, no one is going to have 200m on him in an 800m, or in a 1500m or in a 3000/5k or in the half marathon. By the time both runners cross the half marathon mark he should have 200m on almost anyone or at least be in a really good spot because if the runner is a marathon specialist Jacob is going to catch him before the half mark and if the runner is a shorter distance specialist, he is going to catch him progressively as it gets longer.
Now what if you had two teams of runners with very different skill sets (sprinters, middle distance runners and long distance runners) and each team has to choose a captain and if that runner gets caught the team loses. Then you could probably see some really good strategies, like a team sending their short distance specialists to go really hard from the gun after the second’s team captain so he has to go out hard to not get caught and then eventually run out of gas and gets caught by the first team’s long distance specialists.
Teams of 5. 200m track would be ideal so 100m separation at the start. Each team would probably put rabbits of different distance specialities on the team to force the longest distance runner on the other team to go out too hard.
You or are out if someone from the other team catches you. End it after a set number of laps.
Could be an interesting spectator event.
I have actually done that workout before. If you don't balance the teams you can do it multiple times because one team is much better. I you balance the teams well, they all get bored and tired and they no longer try as hard.
If I (decent hobbyjogger in late 30s) was up against Noah Lyles or Mike Norman.... I think I could still win but barely.
It would take them 20-25s for 200m, 45-50s for 400m, 70-75 for 500m, and then they would need a break. They wouldn't get to 600m until 120s. I could run 400m in 75s, still have a 100m lead, and keep going but would have to slow down eventually. I could get 600m in 120s, jog some rest, and then continue at 6:00 pace and think I would start to gain on them after 180-240s. Then it would be a battle of attrition.
How about a top 800m/1500m runner VS you?
If I was up against Emmanual Korir or Jake Wightman.... it's not a question of if they would catch me, rather how long I can survive. I think I could run 800m in the time it takes them to run 1000m but I would only last a few more seconds, maybe 10s longer.
How about a top 3kSC/5000m runner VS you? If I was up against El Bakkali or Cheptegei.... I think I could last 900m, but not 1000m
I was initially going to say a marathon champion like Eliud Kipchoge because even if he could only run 1:55, 3:45 and 13:05, no one is going to have 200m on him at those distances and as it gets longer he is going to catch the other guy but then I realized he would be very vulnerable between 10k and half marathon to someone like Joshua Cheptegei or Jacob Kiplimo.
So I am probably going to go with Jakob Kiplimo, no one is going to have 200m on him in an 800m, or in a 1500m or in a 3000/5k or in the half marathon. By the time both runners cross the half marathon mark he should have 200m on almost anyone or at least be in a really good spot because if the runner is a marathon specialist Jacob is going to catch him before the half mark and if the runner is a shorter distance specialist, he is going to catch him progressively as it gets longer.
Now what if you had two teams of runners with very different skill sets (sprinters, middle distance runners and long distance runners) and each team has to choose a captain and if that runner gets caught the team loses. Then you could probably see some really good strategies, like a team sending their short distance specialists to go really hard from the gun after the second’s team captain so he has to go out hard to not get caught and then eventually run out of gas and gets caught by the first team’s long distance specialists.
The “sprinter” really has no place in this game. 2 examples to illustrate: say Michael Norman runs a 44.0 400 to start the race vs. the opposing team captain, Jacob Kiplimo—ok, well Kiplimo merely needs to run 200m in less than 44 seconds to avoid being caught, an obvious joke. Let’s say your “sprinter” is actually an 800-1500 guy who manages to run 1000m in 2:13.0: all Kiplimo needs to do is run 800m at his half marathon pace and he’ll get away fine. The strongest team would most likely just be 3 guys with 3k to 25k+ credentials with varying strategical assignments.
Which version of Bekele are we talking about? Recent or prime?
And are we taking the prime for all of them?
It’s a good question, critical to the answering of the prompt. I had initially assumed the OP meant in our present reality, in which case my answer is Kiplimo. If it’s anybody ever in their prime, it becomes almost impossible to answer with Bekele, Gebrselassie, Cheptegei, Kiplimo, Tergat, Kipchoge, Wanjiru and Kamworor being amongst prime contenders. El Guerrouj and Komen, great as they were at 1500-5k, are NOT contenders in this event if you think out the maths.
2003 Gebrselassie, running sub-13 for the back half of the WC 10k and having already debuted in the marathon in ‘02 (albeit coming 3rd behind Khannouchi and Tergat), and running 7:28/26:29 for 3k/10k that season, would be tough to beat, all footwear being equal. But it’s a total crapshoot among those guys I listed and would likely come down to a war of attrition—i.e. who could run a fast 10k, and then hold on through a fast 20k, and then keep on holding on…
It would be fun to see two sprinters play against each other though. They'd never want to, but what if there was significant prize money on the line? Lyles vs. Bromell for $100k? I'd watch that comedy.
It's all about match-ups. No one would be the best in the world at this.
This ^
would make for an amazing single-elimination bracket tournament at an olympics though. Get 8 sprinters, 8 middle distance runners, 8 5k/10k runners and 8 marathoners on an elite level and let them face off in a 32-man bracket and see who comes out on top. The public would love it.
A good way to think about this is envision when its conceivable at max effort at any distance when a runner could be lapped.
To win the runner must answer to himself these questions for each distance in order to win:
400m: is my PR 22 seconds faster than his (if I run a 44 will he run only 66?) (likely not)
800M: is my PR 26 seconds faster than his (If I run 1:44, will he run only 2:10?) (likely not)
1600M: is my PR 28 seconds faster than his (if I run 3:50, will he run only 4:18?) (likely not, however an elite miler could take down a high school miler here)
5k: is my PR 32 seconds faster than his (if I run 12:50 will he run 13:22?) (this is the first distance a VERY elite 5k runner could take down another elite 5k runner, i.e. Cheptegei runs 12:40 and his competitor must run about a 13:10...which is still very hard!)
10k: is my PR 30 seconds faster than his (If I run 26:30 will he run only 27:00?)(Very possible for an elite 10k runner to do against other elites)
So unless a runner is facing a high school boy, the best runner is this even would be the best 5k/10K specialist. Either max out a 5k PR and hope you are 32 seconds faster that day, or do the same for a 10k. I'd say 90% of the time the race is over between 5k to 10k.
I was initially going to say a marathon champion like Eliud Kipchoge because even if he could only run 1:55, 3:45 and 13:05, no one is going to have 200m on him at those distances and as it gets longer he is going to catch the other guy but then I realized he would be very vulnerable between 10k and half marathon to someone like Joshua Cheptegei or Jacob Kiplimo.
So I am probably going to go with Jakob Kiplimo, no one is going to have 200m on him in an 800m, or in a 1500m or in a 3000/5k or in the half marathon. By the time both runners cross the half marathon mark he should have 200m on almost anyone or at least be in a really good spot because if the runner is a marathon specialist Jacob is going to catch him before the half mark and if the runner is a shorter distance specialist, he is going to catch him progressively as it gets longer.
Now what if you had two teams of runners with very different skill sets (sprinters, middle distance runners and long distance runners) and each team has to choose a captain and if that runner gets caught the team loses. Then you could probably see some really good strategies, like a team sending their short distance specialists to go really hard from the gun after the second’s team captain so he has to go out hard to not get caught and then eventually run out of gas and gets caught by the first team’s long distance specialists.
The “sprinter” really has no place in this game. 2 examples to illustrate: say Michael Norman runs a 44.0 400 to start the race vs. the opposing team captain, Jacob Kiplimo—ok, well Kiplimo merely needs to run 200m in less than 44 seconds to avoid being caught, an obvious joke. Let’s say your “sprinter” is actually an 800-1500 guy who manages to run 1000m in 2:13.0: all Kiplimo needs to do is run 800m at his half marathon pace and he’ll get away fine. The strongest team would most likely just be 3 guys with 3k to 25k+ credentials with varying strategical assignments.
Once you make it a team game the distance runners have a problem. Three international class 400m guys will pass 1200m in 2:15. A team foolish enough to open with a distance runner would be out of the race before my microwave popcorn finishes.
The team concept makes for an interesting exercise in game theory, but the winning theory is definitely not to put a marathoner out there on the first leg and let him run for a long time
A good way to think about this is envision when its conceivable at max effort at any distance when a runner could be lapped.
To win the runner must answer to himself these questions for each distance in order to win:
400m: is my PR 22 seconds faster than his (if I run a 44 will he run only 66?) (likely not)
800M: is my PR 26 seconds faster than his (If I run 1:44, will he run only 2:10?) (likely not)
1600M: is my PR 28 seconds faster than his (if I run 3:50, will he run only 4:18?) (likely not, however an elite miler could take down a high school miler here)
5k: is my PR 32 seconds faster than his (if I run 12:50 will he run 13:22?) (this is the first distance a VERY elite 5k runner could take down another elite 5k runner, i.e. Cheptegei runs 12:40 and his competitor must run about a 13:10...which is still very hard!)
10k: is my PR 30 seconds faster than his (If I run 26:30 will he run only 27:00?)(Very possible for an elite 10k runner to do against other elites)
So unless a runner is facing a high school boy, the best runner is this even would be the best 5k/10K specialist. Either max out a 5k PR and hope you are 32 seconds faster that day, or do the same for a 10k. I'd say 90% of the time the race is over between 5k to 10k.
200m is clearly too big of a gap to be inclusive to middle distance runners and sprinters, how about a 100m gap on a 200m indoor track or even a 50m gap on a hypothetical 100m track? Those would make for a more interesting competition.
I didn’t read every single reply, but aren’t we missing the obvious variable of which athlete starts in which position?
if Kipchoge is behind, he eventually catches anyone in the world. If he’s in the lead spot, yeah maybe Cheptegei or even Jakob catches him by 10K.
There is no winner in this unless you stipulate that the faster 200/400M guy starts in the trailing spot. You also need a time limit of some sort, or you get into some Ultra guy eventually catching Kipchoge after 10 hours.
Actually Kipchoge could probably run/walk after a 2:10 easy marathon and be so far ahead that he’d never get caught.
My answer is that there is no runner that can catch anybody in the long run, but not get caught in the first 30 minutes with the roles reversed. If anyone, it’s Kipchoge.
The “sprinter” really has no place in this game. 2 examples to illustrate: say Michael Norman runs a 44.0 400 to start the race vs. the opposing team captain, Jacob Kiplimo—ok, well Kiplimo merely needs to run 200m in less than 44 seconds to avoid being caught, an obvious joke. Let’s say your “sprinter” is actually an 800-1500 guy who manages to run 1000m in 2:13.0: all Kiplimo needs to do is run 800m at his half marathon pace and he’ll get away fine. The strongest team would most likely just be 3 guys with 3k to 25k+ credentials with varying strategical assignments.
Once you make it a team game the distance runners have a problem. Three international class 400m guys will pass 1200m in 2:15. A team foolish enough to open with a distance runner would be out of the race before my microwave popcorn finishes.
The team concept makes for an interesting exercise in game theory, but the winning theory is definitely not to put a marathoner out there on the first leg and let him run for a long time
My understanding is that it’s not a relay. It’s 3 athletes per team running at the same time with different strategies. If you make it into a 3x400 it becomes completely different, and of course you wouldn’t open with a marathoner vs. those 3 sprinters. But if you went with 2 400/800 guys followed by a miler you’d win easily and it would be a boring spectacle. But I don’t think that’s the game the previous poster was proposing.
I didn’t read every single reply, but aren’t we missing the obvious variable of which athlete starts in which position?
if Kipchoge is behind, he eventually catches anyone in the world. If he’s in the lead spot, yeah maybe Cheptegei or even Jakob catches him by 10K.
There is no winner in this unless you stipulate that the faster 200/400M guy starts in the trailing spot. You also need a time limit of some sort, or you get into some Ultra guy eventually catching Kipchoge after 10 hours.
Actually Kipchoge could probably run/walk after a 2:10 easy marathon and be so far ahead that he’d never get caught.
My answer is that there is no runner that can catch anybody in the long run, but not get caught in the first 30 minutes with the roles reversed. If anyone, it’s Kipchoge.
They both start in the same position. They are 200 meters apart on a track, chasing each other. Yikes.
A good way to think about this is envision when its conceivable at max effort at any distance when a runner could be lapped.
To win the runner must answer to himself these questions for each distance in order to win:
400m: is my PR 22 seconds faster than his (if I run a 44 will he run only 66?) (likely not)
800M: is my PR 26 seconds faster than his (If I run 1:44, will he run only 2:10?) (likely not)
1600M: is my PR 28 seconds faster than his (if I run 3:50, will he run only 4:18?) (likely not, however an elite miler could take down a high school miler here)
5k: is my PR 32 seconds faster than his (if I run 12:50 will he run 13:22?) (this is the first distance a VERY elite 5k runner could take down another elite 5k runner, i.e. Cheptegei runs 12:40 and his competitor must run about a 13:10...which is still very hard!)
10k: is my PR 30 seconds faster than his (If I run 26:30 will he run only 27:00?)(Very possible for an elite 10k runner to do against other elites)
So unless a runner is facing a high school boy, the best runner is this even would be the best 5k/10K specialist. Either max out a 5k PR and hope you are 32 seconds faster that day, or do the same for a 10k. I'd say 90% of the time the race is over between 5k to 10k.
Your logic is off. The question isn’t “If I run 44 will he only run 66?” It’s “If I run 44 will he only run 200m in 44?” or “If I run 3:50 will he only run 1400m in 3:50?” so it becomes considerably more stacked against the sprinter/mid-D guy. Again, they have no place in this hypothetical.
Also, regarding your conclusion that the 5k/10k guy would win. Generally I think you’re correct if we boil it down to generic 8/15 guy vs. generic 5/10 guy vs. generic marathoner, but as far as who’s be the best in the world, they’d have to have serious stamina beyond 10k.