asdfghj wrote:
griles17 wrote:
No. Testosterone is the problem. Not the chromosomes.
There wouldn't be the testosterone without the chromosomes.
yes, and there wouldn't be chromosomes if the person were dead, but that doesn't mean we should ban the living from women's track and field. you failed to make an argument.
griles17 wrote:
asdfghj wrote:
There wouldn't be the testosterone without the chromosomes.
yes, and there wouldn't be chromosomes if the person were dead, but that doesn't mean we should ban the living from women's track and field. you failed to make an argument.
well actually, there would be, but they wouldn't do much good. you get my point (hopefully).
Good time for a man. This is crazy. She is cheating. Not breaking a rule, but cheating. The effect of Testosterone go way beyond "400m to a mile".
I love all of the people who think it is fine to let him beat up on the girls. Ironically that mob in a way is all pushing for equality despite his chromosomes. If that is the case why don’t we just abolish men and women classifications all together. Let’s just compete as humans? Women’s sports on a youth, amateur and professional level would disappear instantly nor would they be competitive at any top level amongst men.
What's interesting about all of this is I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. DSD athletes have only been competing for short period of time and mostly likely the one's we are seeing perhaps are not the most talented. It was stupid for anyone to think they would be good at the short sprints and long distances.
600 sq ft apartment, need roommate wrote:
It is almost like testosterone helps at all distances. How could the IAAF have known this in advance? If only there was some data. Like results from every race.
IAAF (WA) knew it, and therefore tried to apply their rule across all the events.
CAS didn't.
OozmaKappa wrote:
I used that factual description and I was censored in Orwellian fashion, my words changed to "intersex" which is misleading and not factual.
Yeah, that's sad Letsrun is sensoring now for using factual information. Other than having underdeveloped male sex organs which appear similar to female sex organs (caused by the DSD), there is nothing about Niyonsaba that is intersex or even female biologically. Because of the DSD and lack of fully developed male sex organs, she looked female at birth and thus was legally named a female, but biologically she is clearly a male with DSD.
TrackCoach wrote:
DSD athletes have only been competing for short period of time and mostly likely the one's we are seeing perhaps are not the most talented. It was stupid for anyone to think they would be good at the short sprints and long distances.
What? They've been competing since the beginning of sport.
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ImpaIa31 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Would you prefer the description "male"?
"Male", a word that does not apply to you.
I can see how gender issues are confusing for you.
OozmaKappa wrote:
It must be said this is a very soft WR performance, worth 1241 points on the scoring tables, equivalent to a 3:55 1500m or a 1:55 800m.
However, this is only the beginning for these ***deleted by LRC*** dsd athletes and the real WRs are in danger in these coming years.
LRC note. Please do not call intersex athletes male. She is legally known as a woman.
A legal description is not the same as a biological description. In this case, they are clearly not the same. If they were there would be no issue.
arte wrote:
Meanwhile, the current rule of "from here to there is forbidden, otherwise ok" is quite absurd, seemingly created just to get Caster Semenya out of the sport.
People on both sides of the issue think that the current rule is absurd.
griles17 wrote:
asdfghj wrote:
There wouldn't be the testosterone without the chromosomes.
yes, and there wouldn't be chromosomes if the person were dead, but that doesn't mean we should ban the living from women's track and field. you failed to make an argument.
Your argument was the chromosomes don't matter. But chromosomes are how it is determined whether you are male or female. You can make that distinction in an embryo. It's a clear black and white distinction. If you are XX, you should be eligible to compete in the female category. It solves the transgender and intersex (for lack of a better word) problems and is consistent with why a separate category for females exist in the first place.
You say it's the testosterone that's the problem. Would you really want two categories based on a numerical testosterone level? Are there any XX women who have testosterone levels that are at the levels banned by WA and CAS?
Now, stop this parody! wrote:
Time for World Athletics to act! How can this be allowed?Of course more testosterone gives better performance at all distances .
Gender categories need to be completely eliminated from the sport as gender is an outdated concept for sports. Replace the gender categories with testosterone categories instead. This needs to be done ASAP by World Athletics.
asdfghj wrote:
MatthewXCountry wrote:
It's soft, full stop. Kipyegon or Hassan would run 5:17 no problem. That is what their 1500m PBs are worth. This is not a real story until the record actually drops to a reasonable time.
So it's not a problem that she wins Diamond League races, it's not a problem that she breaks world records as long as those records are soft? Semenya never set any world records, but it was a problem. Mboma is on a trend that is problematic for women's sprints. Now is the time to fix this. The longer XY athletes are allowed to compete in the women's division, the harder it's going to be to change.
Go complain about the Diamond League Final results on that thread if you want, at least that result means something. It is worth discussing the fairness of female athletes with Y chromosomes or elevated testosterone competing in meaningful competitions like those.
This thread is about the 2000m "best", which is not worth anything. O'Sullivan's "record," if we could even call it that, is maybe worth 4min for 1500. I don't think these uncommon distances are worth commenting on, especially when there are hundreds of XX women who have run faster equivalent 1500m times.
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what evidence is this? do we really have a big set of reliable, generalizable, methodologically sound evidence?
RunRagged wrote:
follow the science wrote:
Yeah, that's sad Letsrun is sensoring now for using factual information. Other than having underdeveloped male sex organs which appear similar to female sex organs (caused by the DSD), there is nothing about Niyonsaba that is intersex or even female biologically. Because of the DSD and lack of fully developed male sex organs, she looked female at birth and thus was legally named a female, but biologically she is clearly a male with DSD.
Chances are that Niyonsaba was not "legally named a female" at birth or at any time in childhood. When Niyonsaba was born in 1993, the births of the majority of (black) children in sub-Saharan Africa were not registered with government authorities. In some countries, such as South Africa and Namibia, black parents historically made a point of hiding the births of their children from their governments. Which is part of the reason Caster Semenya didn't get a South African birth certificate until 2007, when Semenya was 16 and already a junior track sensation. By then, a number of officials in the same government that issued Semenya a BC saying "Female" were already planning to put Semenya on the world stage as South Africa's "golden girl" runner.
The likelihood that Francine Niyonsaba's birth was registered with Burundian government authorities at any time during childhood is further diminished by the fact that Francine was born when Burundi was engulfed in the same ethnic strife and mass killings that led to the genocide in Rwanda next door - and just months before the start of the Burundian Civil War characterized by continual chaos, bloodshed and the collapse of state institutions. The civil war in Burundi didn't end until Niyonsaba was 12.
Complicating the situation further, both sides during the Burundian Civil War made extensive use of child soldiers. During Niyonsaba's childhood, the Burundian military regularly conscripted male children age 7-16 for its militias, forcing tens of thousands of boys to become front-line combat soldiers. This would have provided a powerful incentive for parents of children born with male disorders of sex development resulting in atypical-looking male genitals to claim that such children were female - and to tell the children this as well to make it less likely they would get caught out when armed adult soldiers showed up looking for boys to take away.
runragged is unquestionably the most able 'journalist' at LRC. I hope she isnt offended by being called a journalist. I mean this in the traditional sense of some one who actually investigates and presents a case.
maybe brojos and JG should think about not posting 'jounalism' without discussion relevant topics with runragged first. it may save them some embarassment.
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