Chicago Women's Race

1952 Olympic Marathon: Zátopek asked Peters about the pace, who replied that it was too slow. So Zátopek took off an won. Does this constitute coaching?

1968 Olympic marathon: Abebe Bikila tells Mamo Wolde to go. He wins. Was he aided?

2005 Chicago Marathon: Felix Limo was in a pack of four guys for the closing miles -- would he have run so well had he not been in that pack?

2004 Olympic Marathon: Meb Keflezighi said to Stefano Baldini (in Italian), "Let's get him," pointing to the tiring Vanderlei da Lima. They caught him. Should they be disqualified for helpping one another?

In every case, all persons involved were legal competitors in the race. If you don't like it (in the case with Deena and Verran) then petition the IAAF to no longer recognize women's WRs in mixed races.

Do the pacers expect their fair share of the money?? A male pacer for a top female is an insult to the determination, hard work, attitudes, and efforts of female runners. Detroit Free Press Marathon now has a rule "no personal pacers allowed on the course". Hansons Rule.

1952 Olympic Marathon: Zátopek asked Peters about the pace, who replied that it was too slow. So Zátopek took off an won. Does this constitute coaching?1968 Olympic marathon: Abebe Bikila tells Mamo Wolde to go. He wins. Was he aided?2005 Chicago Marathon: Felix Limo was in a pack of four guys for the closing miles -- would he have run so well had he not been in that pack?2004 Olympic Marathon: Meb Keflezighi said to Stefano Baldini (in Italian), "Let's get him," pointing to the tiring Vanderlei da Lima. They caught him. Should they be disqualified for helpping one another?In every case, all persons involved were legal competitors in the race. If you don't like it (in the case with Deena and Verran) then petition the IAAF to no longer recognize women's WRs in mixed races.

$$$ wrote:

Do the pacers expect their fair share of the money?? A male pacer for a top female is an insult to the determination, hard work, attitudes, and efforts of female runners. Detroit Free Press Marathon now has a rule "no personal pacers allowed on the course". Hansons Rule.

Hey Trackhead (dickhead?), you posted this on every pacing thread. Guess what? The IAAF also has an "honest effort" rule. Remember Skah and Chelimo? All of your examples are irrelevant because they were all putting forth an honest effort. Verran clearly was not (in fact, you choose a pacer because they can run the pace without an honest effort). Women should be paced by women. That would be fair. Gender equity and all that. The women's WR will be artifically close to the men's WR because men cannot have pacers/coaches throughout the whole race.

And yet the IAAF recognizes mixed races -- like I said, if you want the IAAF to recognize only gender segregated races, okay, but it is perfectly legal for a man to run all the way to the finish with a woman. There would be no legal bearing on this if it were another woman running next to Deena, turning around, giving info, breaking the wind.

Because it is a road race, and the IAAF recognizes the validity of women's times in mixed races, there is no cheating, no unfairness.

As someone else pointed out, all the other womens could have done the exact same thing.

trackhead wrote:

1952 Olympic Marathon: Zátopek asked Peters about the pace, who replied that it was too slow. So Zátopek took off an won. Does this constitute coaching?

1968 Olympic marathon: Abebe Bikila tells Mamo Wolde to go. He wins. Was he aided?

2005 Chicago Marathon: Felix Limo was in a pack of four guys for the closing miles -- would he have run so well had he not been in that pack?

2004 Olympic Marathon: Meb Keflezighi said to Stefano Baldini (in Italian), "Let's get him," pointing to the tiring Vanderlei da Lima. They caught him. Should they be disqualified for helpping one another?

In every case, all persons involved were legal competitors in the race. If you don't like it (in the case with Deena and Verran) then petition the IAAF to no longer recognize women's WRs in mixed races.

you're arguing apples and oranges there trackhead. put it this way, why don't we allow coaches to ride alongside their runners with a bike and give instructions or pace them? same thing verran was doing.

i have no problem with pacemakers in general. usually because they'll run so hard that they can't possibly finish. however, in mixed formats like this, the pacer can run less than their effort and still pace and give aid.

furthemore, is this going spark a type of arms race? verran was clearly not going to aid dita, but what if he did. what if he saw that she was getting close, dropped back to help her close the gap! would you say that it's dishonest?

is this what we will expect from women's marathoning in the future? a bunch of fast women, surrounded by a pack of elite men, hoping to outduel each other?

excellent post, philosopher

I understand -- my point is that, until the IAAF begins to recognize only non-mixed races (as they do for all track events) -- nothing illegal occured.

My point in bringing up the other examples of pace aiding or instructions is that there is nothing to stop legal competitors for doing this (so long as they do not impede any other runners, of course).

Clint is as legal in that race as Deena -- he started at with the gun and the IAAF says that records are legal in mixed races.

Now, will the IAAF ever make a move to recognize only mens-only, womens-pnly records? I doubt it.

trackhead wrote:

In every case, all persons involved were legal competitors in the race. If you don't like it (in the case with Deena and Verran) then petition the IAAF to no longer recognize women's WRs in mixed races.

Clint Verran is not a woman, was not a legal competitor in the women's race, and Denna Kastor should be disqualified for being a cheater.

The majority of people on this board will compromise thier own princples because it's 'Deena'. She can do no wrong, not much different than Lance & drugs--can't be him...why not? I thought only the Pope was infalible.

I just wonder what they would be saying if an African or Japanese had been in front & Deena catchig her???? Think about it & don't be a hypocrite

The more I read, the more I'm learning that Verran may've employed illegal tactics. Didn't know the rules before.

At the same time, I think the Chicago organizers will "look the other way". Why? Because this marathon's gaining in popularity.....and running fast, pacing, etc. is the big elite draw.

When was the womens start time as opposed to the mens start time? There were not seperate races.

IAAF

RULE 147

Mixed Competition

For all competitions held completely in the stadium, mixed events

between male and female participants shall not be permitted.

Specific Conditions

18. Except in Road Events:

RULE 260

(a) The record shall be made in an athletic facility, which

conforms to Rule 140 with or without roof. A running track or

runway used shall be laid on top of a solid foundation.

(b) For any record at any distance of 200m or more to be

recognised, the track on which it was made shall not exceed

402.3m (440 yards) and the race shall have started on some

part of the perimeter. This limitation does not apply to the

Steeplechase events where the Water Jump is placed outside a

normal 400m track.

(c) The record shall be made on a track, the radius of the outside

lane of which does not exceed 50m, except where the bend is

formed with two different radii, in which case the longer of the

two arcs should not account for more than 60° of the 180° turn.

(d) No performance set by an athlete will be recognised if it has

been accomplished during a mixed competition.

trackhead,

I think this is a completly different issue from whether or not pacing should be allowed for world records. I personally do not understand the philosophical objection of some people to this. In this case, however, the pacing wasn't against the clock, but against another runner. Surely you can see a difference?

trackhead wrote:

As someone else pointed out, all the other womens could have done the exact same thing.

Verran could have dropped back to "help" Constantina Dita along as he was doing with Deena, but he didn't do that did he?

Thus Constantina Dita didn't have the exact same unfair advantage as did Deena.

John Erickson wrote:

The majority of people on this board will compromise thier own princples because it's 'Deena'. She can do no wrong, not much different than Lance & drugs--can't be him...why not? I thought only the Pope was infalible.

I just wonder what they would be saying if an African or Japanese had been in front & Deena catchig her???? Think about it & don't be a hypocrite

I agree. All the best wishes to Deena in the future, but let's do it in a fair and ethical manner.

wow -- can anyone site a single rule from the IAAF handbook that was broken?

IAAF RULE 144

Assistance to Athletes

Indication of Intermediate Times

1. Intermediate times and preliminary winning times may be officially

announced and/or displayed. Otherwise such times must not be

communicated to the athletes by persons in the competition area

without the prior approval of the appropriate Referee.

Giving Assistance

2. The following shall not be considered as assistance:

(a) communication between the athletes and their coaches not

placed in the competition area. In order to facilitate this

communication and not to disturb the staging of the

competition, a place in the stands, close to the immediate site

of each field event, should be reserved to the athletes' coaches.

(b) Physiotherapy and/or medical examination/treatment necessary

to enable an athlete to participate or continue participation once

on the competition area by personnel designated or approved

by the Medical Delegate and/or Technical Delegate specifically

for this purpose, is permitted provided that it does not delay the

conduct of the competition or an athlete's trial in the designated

order. Such attendance or assistance by any other person

whether during competition or immediately before competition

once athletes have left the Call Room is assistance.

For the purpose of this Rule the following shall be considered as

assistance, and are therefore not allowed:

(c) pacing in races by persons not participating in the race, by

athletes or walkers lapped or about to be lapped or by any kind

of technical device.

(d) use of video or cassette recorders, radios, CD, radio

transmitters, mobile phone or similar devices in the arena.

Any athlete giving or receiving assistance from within the

competition area during an event shall be cautioned by the Referee

and warned that for any repetition, he will be disqualified from that

event. Any performance accomplished up to that time shall

therefore not be considered.

___________________________

Did anyone see a race official give warning to Verran/Deena? If not, is it safe to assume that they he had prior permission to verbally give her information?

I understand completely -- my point is that there is no rule (that I have found) against it.

People get on here and start calling this an unfair situation or cheating and yet I can't find any rules that have been broken.

spell check wrote:

trackhead wrote:

As someone else pointed out, all the other womens could have done the exact same thing.

Verran could have dropped back to "help" Constantina Dita along as he was doing with Deena, but he didn't do that did he?

Thus Constantina Dita didn't have the exact same unfair advantage as did Deena.

Perhaps because he was staying with the leader. And even if not -- where is the rule that has been violated?

trackhead,

it comes to simple ethics, fairplay and good sportsmanship.

No rule, per se, was broken today but I thought it was one of the poorest displays of fairplay and sportsmanship I have seen in a roadrace. Very unethical.

The IAAF may look the other way as well. They have recently learned (what we in the US have know for decades) the tremendous popularity of road racing. The top marathons and the IAAF are now working together to promote the sport. In reality, it's the IAAF that is bending backwards to get a piece of the action. The big marathons are in the drivers seat and will be able to call the shots. Therefore it would be unlikely that we would see any new rules to prevent what happened today in Chicago.

My opinion is that national and world records should only be set in non-mixed races (same as track).