Elliot Giles 1:43.63, 2nd all time!

Sovietvest wrote:

Is it really suspicious that an athlete who ran 1:44.99 at 22 improves to 1:43 by the age of 27? I believe achilles injuries, a lack of DL invites and poor tactics led to his lack of progression but he was always seen as very talented. The kind of linear, gradual progression you see with sprinters pbs is rarely replicated with MD runners where we often see apparent plateaus and big jumps.

1:44.99 was at 23.

For non british runners and Somalia born Farah those kind of arguments seem not to be valid.

I should add ikloper, that I am not a British fan who thinks Brits have never doped. Whilst I believe the current crop of athletes are the cleanest we've ever had, I've heard too many stories about doping in the 70s, 80s and 90s to be under any illusions. In particular, I have been told from multiple sources that one of the biggest names was a blood doper from the late 70s up to the point blood doping was officially banned.

OK.

Many british fans seem to think differently.

I apologise, ikloper - 23 years and 1 month!

The comments I made about MD progression are comment I would apply to any athlete regardless of nationality. I'm a fan of athletics first, British athletics second. Don't make assumptions about people based upon their nationality - that's prejudice (something that you've just accused me of.)

Hoare en Kechler were wearing dragonflys, with some sort of sleeve around it, weren't ON spikes.

I have not accused you of anything.

The race

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x3YRmJvnWo

Okay what would my vested interest be in the respect of downplaying the role of the footwear? Making people aware of what is actually happening in these products so people can take into consideration those factors as well as others that give some of the athletes credit some actual credit for their performances?

This is so simple:

I'm not claiming by any means that new technology in the these spikes is doing nothing. But it's a much smaller (albeit important) improvement and it is beyond amusing to read wild theories of "spring loaded carbon fiber plates" etc that I get the impression people think these products are replicating Oscar Pistorius's prosthetic blades. You know math right? If someone sat there and told you 1+2=4 would you just go with it?

The ability to add the most nominal amount of cushioning foam into these products is the difference. Stiff shaped plates have always existed. Adding foam to reduce fatigue is helping athletes get to races in better shape and in the case of events 3000m and up, even reducing fatigue in-race. In the past either the cushioning material was either too heavy or did not compress/rebound effectively enough and therefore compromised weight and energy to track transfer so wasn't in the product. You can still run fine without it - tons of great performances are still being run in "regular" Zoom Vics/adidas avanti etc - hasn't stopped Brazier, Hoppel, Tsegay running quick.

That's all. So if we want to talk about "super spikes" let's talk more about "super foams" because its the only difference in the track product (road being a completely different ballgame).

I'm sure Nick Willis feels like the spikes are great and make a difference - I know he does. At this point in his career that's exactly what I expect to hear given he's probably run his entire career with his legs getting pulverized anytime he put spikes on to workout. You're putting this up like it's an amazing piece of info - I can talk to Nick in person anytime I want about his thoughts on these spikes.

So let's just try and keep to the real news instead of the fake, emotional stuff - you can pass that on to Tim Hutchings by all means.

Tim Hutchins is wrong.

How do you explain the guys and girls running National records in non-“super” spikes? I was like Houlihan and just went from 14:28 to 13:53 in old school Matumbos.

Houlihan and Brazier have done the same/ same with the adidas and Under Armour athletes. Christ, Morgan McDonald just went 8:10 in traditional spikes.

nbzeik wrote:

Tim Hutchins is wrong.

How do you explain the guys and girls running National records in non-“super” spikes? I was like Houlihan and just went from 14:28 to 13:53 in old school Matumbos.

Houlihan and Brazier have done the same/ same with the adidas and Under Armour athletes. Christ, Morgan McDonald just went 8:10 in traditional spikes.

Obviously your 2nd sentence there is totally meaningless. No 14:28s or 13:53s as far as the eye can see.

Morgan McDonald ran 8:14.9.

nbzeik wrote:

Tim Hutchins is wrong.

Last week on the boards, someone tried using the fact that Hutchings had apparently described Jakob as a “freak of nature” as proof that he’s not doping.

ikloper wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Well, first of all, he is 24 not 26. He also missed 2 years after a serious motorcycle accident.

Yeah, sure Brits are obviously the dopers.

He is 26 with best times before 1:44.99 and 3:41.27 - now close to 27 he runs 1:43.63 and 3:36.90 INDOORS. Improvement almost like Farah.

Not all Brits, but many. As in most other countries.

If there are more similarities to Farah, then sure I'll suspect he's doping. And of course I'll get accused of racism. With Farah it's multiple red flags. Elliott Giles has smashed a PB and broken a record in the new shoes in this weird Covid period. If he dominates the 800 and 1500 for the next 10 years, can't hear the doorbell when testers call, trains with Jama Aden in remotest Ethiopia and then denies it despite having posted a pic of them on Instagram, has a coach who gets banned by anti-doping, can't remember what his coach was injecting him with, beats up dog walkers in the park, has tantrums at border control, has fights with Geb in the gym etc etc, then yeah - I'll say Giles is as likely a doper as Mo.

Some countries dope more than others. Any reasonable person can admit that, and those like you who use the race card are usually a Jama Aden troll or similar.

Coevett wrote:

Elliott Giles has smashed a PB and broken a record in the new shoes in this weird Covid period. .

He has smashed TWO PBs at 800 and 1500. In the 800 with the nr 2 indoor performance in history. If a Kenyan would have this improvement at close to 27 years of age, for you this would be almost a proof he is doping.

A non-exhaustive list of some dudes’ probabilities of making the next Olympic or WC 800 final, from most to least likely:

9 - Donavan Brazier

8 - Bryce Hoppel

7 - Ferguson Rotich

6 - Daniel Rowden, Amel Tuka, Wesley Vazquez, Elliott Giles, Nijel Amos, Marco Arop

5 - Adam Kszczot, Emmanuel Korir, Brandon McBride, Wycliffe Kinyamal

4 - Jamie Webb, Max Burgin, Michael Saruni, Peter Bol, Joseph Deng, Andreas Kramer

3 - Charlie Hunter, Kyle Langford, Pierre-Ambroise Bosse, Brannon Kidder, Erik Sowinski

2 - Jason Gomez, Cole Hocker, Kameron Jones, David Rudisha

1 - Alan Webb, Tom Courtney, Christian Coleman, Killian Jornet

John Wesley Harding wrote:

nbzeik wrote:

Tim Hutchins is wrong.

How do you explain the guys and girls running National records in non-“super” spikes? I was like Houlihan and just went from 14:28 to 13:53 in old school Matumbos.

Houlihan and Brazier have done the same/ same with the adidas and Under Armour athletes. Christ, Morgan McDonald just went 8:10 in traditional spikes.

Obviously your 2nd sentence there is totally meaningless. No 14:28s or 13:53s as far as the eye can see.

Morgan McDonald ran 8:14.9.

I think I understand what you meant now; my apologies for accusing you of spewing grammatically incorrect nonsense instead of seeing the obvious meaning. Seems sort of irrelevant though, since 13:53 isn’t so statistically unusual for a guy, unless you’re not a guy, in which case can I please be your agent?

John Wesley Harding wrote:

A non-exhaustive list of some dudes’ probabilities of making the next Olympic or WC 800 final, from most to least likely:

9 - Donavan Brazier

8 - Bryce Hoppel

7 - Ferguson Rotich

6 - Daniel Rowden, Amel Tuka, Wesley Vazquez, Elliott Giles, Nijel Amos, Marco Arop

5 - Adam Kszczot, Emmanuel Korir, Brandon McBride, Wycliffe Kinyamal

4 - Jamie Webb, Max Burgin, Michael Saruni, Peter Bol, Joseph Deng, Andreas Kramer

3 - Charlie Hunter, Kyle Langford, Pierre-Ambroise Bosse, Brannon Kidder, Erik Sowinski

2 - Jason Gomez, Cole Hocker, Kameron Jones, David Rudisha

1 - Alan Webb, Tom Courtney, Christian Coleman, Killian Jornet

If "9" stays for 90% and so on, this final needs 13+ places.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

A non-exhaustive list of some dudes’ probabilities of making the next Olympic or WC 800 final, from most to least likely:

9 - Donavan Brazier

8 - Bryce Hoppel

7 - Ferguson Rotich

6 - Daniel Rowden, Amel Tuka, Wesley Vazquez, Elliott Giles, Nijel Amos, Marco Arop

5 - Adam Kszczot, Emmanuel Korir, Brandon McBride, Wycliffe Kinyamal

4 - Jamie Webb, Max Burgin, Michael Saruni, Peter Bol, Joseph Deng, Andreas Kramer

3 - Charlie Hunter, Kyle Langford, Pierre-Ambroise Bosse, Brannon Kidder, Erik Sowinski

2 - Jason Gomez, Cole Hocker, Kameron Jones, David Rudisha

1 - Alan Webb, Tom Courtney, Christian Coleman, Killian Jornet

This is really annoying: you’ve got me speculating who’d win an 800 this summer out of Webb, Coleman or Journet. I’ve ruled out Courtney.

ikloper wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

A non-exhaustive list of some dudes’ probabilities of making the next Olympic or WC 800 final, from most to least likely:

9 - Donavan Brazier

8 - Bryce Hoppel

7 - Ferguson Rotich

6 - Daniel Rowden, Amel Tuka, Wesley Vazquez, Elliott Giles, Nijel Amos, Marco Arop

5 - Adam Kszczot, Emmanuel Korir, Brandon McBride, Wycliffe Kinyamal

4 - Jamie Webb, Max Burgin, Michael Saruni, Peter Bol, Joseph Deng, Andreas Kramer

3 - Charlie Hunter, Kyle Langford, Pierre-Ambroise Bosse, Brannon Kidder, Erik Sowinski

2 - Jason Gomez, Cole Hocker, Kameron Jones, David Rudisha

1 - Alan Webb, Tom Courtney, Christian Coleman, Killian Jornet

If "9" stays for 90% and so on, this final needs 13+ places.

No, the numbers are more or less arbitrary—like saying “on a scale from 1 to 10, with 10 being Peter Snell in 1964 and 1 being my dad.”

No, I don’t think 87 year old Tom Courtney has a 10% chance of making the next final, although I’m rooting for him.

Sovietvest wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

A non-exhaustive list of some dudes’ probabilities of making the next Olympic or WC 800 final, from most to least likely:

9 - Donavan Brazier

8 - Bryce Hoppel

7 - Ferguson Rotich

6 - Daniel Rowden, Amel Tuka, Wesley Vazquez, Elliott Giles, Nijel Amos, Marco Arop

5 - Adam Kszczot, Emmanuel Korir, Brandon McBride, Wycliffe Kinyamal

4 - Jamie Webb, Max Burgin, Michael Saruni, Peter Bol, Joseph Deng, Andreas Kramer

3 - Charlie Hunter, Kyle Langford, Pierre-Ambroise Bosse, Brannon Kidder, Erik Sowinski

2 - Jason Gomez, Cole Hocker, Kameron Jones, David Rudisha

1 - Alan Webb, Tom Courtney, Christian Coleman, Killian Jornet

This is really annoying: you’ve got me speculating who’d win an 800 this summer out of Webb, Coleman or Journet. I’ve ruled out Courtney.

1. Webb 1:56.6

2. Jornet 1:56.7

3. Coleman 2:14

4. Courtney 6:33

WEBB IS BACK BABY!!