UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

SDSU Aztec wrote:

The Narwhal wrote:

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/ncaa-transgender-policy-background-resources

Didn't that just confirm the same rules that have been in place since 2010?

This policy is obviously flawed. And we could already tell that when Cece Telfer won the D2 title in 2019. But NCAA did not take it seriously enough, probably because they thought D2 was not a big deal. (Telfer would not have made the final in the D1 championship.)

But if someone who was second team Ivy League (and did not qualify for NCAA for three seasons), suddenly becomes the D1 national champion, that should alarm NCAA. Unfortunately, I don't think they could change the eligibility for this season. And since this is the final season of Lia Thomas' eligibility, she won't be affected by any future change in rules. That does not mean NCAA does not need to change the policy. If they don't, they could have another Lia Thomas down the road, either in swimming or some other sports.

I think it would be best if Thomas continues to swim the rest of regular season, and then withdraws from championships. That way, no one will be denied the title they deserve, but NCAA will have enough data points to justify the future rule changes. Unfortunately, the chances of that happening are probably as big as my chances of beating Galen in the next marathon.

Today everything is about a small group of zealots being allowed to lead corporations around by the nose if it fits the right narrative. According to the zealots Bruce Jenner was a woman when he won the gold medal, and not saying so is bigotry. The crazy years.

My response to Narwhal was that the rules are not new and have been in place for 10 years.

The N.C.A.A. has always taken its transgender rules seriously. Even if they had wished to ban transgender athletes, they would have been advised by their attorneys they would lose in court if challenged. Even with Thomas dominating NCAA women's swimming, they cannot unilaterally ban such athletes. If there will be changes, it will be as a result of court actions and it will take far more that one successful transgender athlete to get it done

Well, I am not so certain about that. There were three relevant athletes in the DSD case with IAAF/WA, but in reality it was only about Semenya. So in that sense, one athlete might have changed the rule.

sayyestonepotism wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Hogwash. From beginning to end.

Nope. There are countless scientific studies about personality differences of sexes. There are in agressiveness agreeabliness and others.

Compassion and competitiveness are human attributes and are found in either gender. How about doping - a feature of ambition - do you think that is only a male problem?

real brain differences wrote:

Only a man would have the audacity and perceived privilege to do what this swimmer is doing. And the women he is doing it to are too meek to be totally honest about how they feel about it.

Only a "man" can do it because trans women are biological males. It's a bit hard for a trans male to dominate men. However, if ambition against sportsmanship is the measure there are and have been plenty of women dopers. Winning any way you can is a human attribute, not simply a male one.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

My response to Narwhal was that the rules are not new and have been in place for 10 years.

The N.C.A.A. has always taken its transgender rules seriously. Even if they had wished to ban transgender athletes, they would have been advised by their attorneys they would lose in court if challenged. Even with Thomas dominating NCAA women's swimming, they cannot unilaterally ban such athletes. If there will be changes, it will be as a result of court actions and it will take far more that one successful transgender athlete to get it done

Well, I am not so certain about that. There were three relevant athletes in the DSD case with IAAF/WA, but in reality it was only about Semenya. So in that sense, one athlete might have changed the rule.

Semenya was not a transgender athlete. The IAAF was successful in its argument that she was biologically a male and should be required to have testosterone suppression treatments before being. allowed to compete. Transgender athletes are already required to receive hormone treatments.

The number of individuals doping by gender is far more males than females. Females are more likely to have been forced to dope by males in state-sponsored doping programs. Just like there are millions more males, than females, in prison for acts of aggression. Similarly, every act of war, in the history of humanity ever perpetuated, was 99.9% initiated and fought by males.

I could post 100s of studies with findings showing males are more aggressive, assertive and competitive than females.

Males are different from females. These are biological facts found in every species that reproduces sexually.

Taking a full grown male and lowering his T for a couple of years and saying he’s now equal to a female is like taking a Porsche 911 and filling it with low grade fuel and saying it’s now a Volkswagen Beetle.

There are hundreds of male high school athletes around the world who could smash every women’s track world record with ease every year. In middle distance events, men seem to have an ever greater advantage over women. World class women’s middle distance times are achieved easily by high school boys who barely even train properly.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Semenya was not a transgender athlete. The IAAF was successful in its argument that she was biologically a male and should be required to have testosterone suppression treatments before being. allowed to compete. Transgender athletes are already required to receive hormone treatments.

IAAF/WA rule is "5nmol/L or below for a minimum of 12 months." NCAA rule is taking medication to lower the T-level for 12 months. There is a big difference between the two. Any "input" based rule is flawed because each person responds to medicine differently.

I don't know what is the current t-level of Lia Thomas, or how long she has sustained that level. The SwimSwam guy never asked that question. Thomas may well be ineligible to compete in the FINA World Championships, and therefore the trial race as well. We will see if she shows up in April.

quote]real brain differences wrote:

The number of individuals doping by gender is far more males than females.(quote)

Proof?

Are you really that stupid to not figure it out your own.

Steroid use in high school, who do you think is using it more, boys or girls?

Professional sports, where male professional athletes out number female athletes probably 100 to 1. NFL, NBA, Baseball, who is doping more, men or women? College football, college basketball, etc.

Vanity muscles at gyms around the world, who is doping more? Men or women?

That and more. Add it up. What ratio of male to female doping rate is a reasonable hypothesis to you?

astro wrote:

Today everything is about a small group of zealots being allowed to lead corporations around by the nose if it fits the right narrative.

You have the cart and horse mixed up here.

Sorry, but if you have a hang-down , you’re a man or boy

real brain differences wrote:

Are you really that stupid to not figure it out your own.

Steroid use in high school, who do you think is using it more, boys or girls?

Professional sports, where male professional athletes out number female athletes probably 100 to 1. NFL, NBA, Baseball, who is doping more, men or women? College football, college basketball, etc.

Vanity muscles at gyms around the world, who is doping more? Men or women?

That and more. Add it up. What ratio of male to female doping rate is a reasonable hypothesis to you?

Thanks. You have answered my question - you have no proof.

Measured against relative performances gains, there is actually little basis for the argument that women are less likely to use PEDs. Because women have lower baseline levels, they often benefit more from small doses of steroids, which gives them a greater boost in performance. “For females, the effects of anabolic steroids are greater, and the old files of the German Democratic Republic have shown that their official doping plan targeted females, as those effects had more impact than they did on their male counterparts,” says Olivier de Hon, scientific expert at the Anti-Doping Authority of The Netherlands.

“We know that the win-at-all-costs culture exists in all sport, at all levels,” says Annie Skinner, a spokeswoman for the United States Anti-Doping Association. “The temptation to use performance-enhancing drugs to cheat your competitor isn’t limited by gender.”

Of course, news that female athletes are doping isn’t a surprise. Just as the IAAF documents indicate that doping among World Championship and Olympic track and field athletes is far more widespread than previously thought, recent high profile positive tests—including three-time Chicago Marathon champion Liliya Shobukhova and three-time Boston Marathon winner Rita Jeptoo—suggest that female athletes may be doping at similar rates to their male counterparts.

So based on everything I explained to you about males taking performance enhancing drugs from the high school level to the professional level, and you think more females are taking them?

Women barely even have an opportunity to be professional athletes. NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, professional soccer the world over, hockey, cricket, etc. Men have the opportunity to become rich in these sports and the temptations to dope are very real. There is no female professional equivalent for these professional sports.

Many of these male professional are contact sports, where physical strength is ultra important, raising the rates of doping.

Oh, and here is a study:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/weaving_full_report_2008.pdf

If you actually think there are more females doping than men, you really aren’t smart enough to participate in this discussion.

If an athlete (group of athletes) or team wanted to challenge Thomas' participation in, say, the NCAA Championships, what would the best recourse be?

With virtually no legal knowledge about this issue, I'm inclined to posit that a court would not issue an injunction barring Thomas from competing. Several states have attempted to enact laws prohibiting transgender athletes from participating on teams that match their gender identity, but courts seem to be inclined to strike them down. I do not know if the NCAA policy has ever faced a legal challenge.

I suspect the only other viable option would be for athletes to refuse to compete (stage a walkout) in the event(s) that Thomas is swimming, which I suspect is also not a viable option for a host of reasons.

I imagine Thomas and U Penn will have an incredibly successful year. However, this will not be a one-off scenario as more transgender athletes begin competing at very high levels and questions mount as to whether it's ultimately a fair policy to allow trans athletes that have gone through adolescence to compete in events that match their gender identity. The athletes simply can't give up some of the physical traits they've developed prior to transitioning. The disparities will be even more apparent in sports like basketball and volleyball.