I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying because you are right - all these things clearly matter.
But I think this is a clear component with respect to the "staggering" nature of this performance - that it's not like Hull has been some middling "journeywoman" running in poorly paced, lower talent World Challenger meets who finally got her chance in the big time and just burst into prominence.
She has had the privilege of running in the worlds best venues, against the worlds best athletes with the worlds best conditions now for at least 24 months.
I guess the logic is for people struggling with the legitimacy of this is given all of these realities, it might have been more plausible to have seen a handful of races where maybe she challenged and stuck with a Kipyegon, Hassan, Tsegay etc for an extended part of the race and had maybe even run a few times in the 3.53/54's. But the reality is she's been a strong, if unspectacular main pack asset in these fields that only just broke 3.56 this season in what was then a breakthrough, done in near perfect conditions and now we see this 5 second+ explosion to very rare air where we also know a number of suspect characters (Yunxia and Dibaba specifically) are also breathing.
I think anyone who doesn't understand your POV on this is just willfully naive or in the dark! There were some seriously staggering performances from the meets. Here's the ones I'd ID. I might've missed some: Hull- well-covered here, I don't need to add anything
Sedjati- This guy is a signature talent and has been since his emergence in 2022. The backstory before 2021 is vague at best — soccer player? military? talent recognized and running sub-1:45 in less than a year? Anyhow, the performance level, associations and background raise questions not the progression as much. Tual- the rationale here HAS to be that Tual has been training at 80-85% the last few years and skating on immense talent. I think most would acknowledge his PB was due for some revision as most guys who make 2 global finals are 1:43-mid to high type guys. This 1:41 level is completely unexpected and I'd compare this to Hull for now as he's been in some fast races and hasn't shown near this level until 2024. Kemei Cheminingwa - This guy came out of nowhere, but as I've described in other threads, there are Kenyans who are big talents who simply need the opportunity to get to Europe. Last year, he was primed for a breakout as anyone who goes out in 1:16 leading Kinyamal and Wanyonyi and holds on to a 1:46.2 has clearly got some more in the tank. Our info on what his 2019-2022 were like is pretty limited. We know he joined Moraa's group in 2023 I believe and that the transition wasn't seamless, and his 800m racecraft needed a lot of work. Crestan- Here we have an athlete with a limited experience in being in super-fast races, and some injuries clearly (missed 2023 worlds), if you look at his early-career PBs you see strong promise — 47.0/1:46/3:46 at age 19 including a World Junior Bronze. Also the performance level here is not at the level of the first three.
Bell- The benefit of a Western athlete is we have a lot of info on here. This is a new-wave cross training success story from an athlete who could not stay healthy and was in and out of the sport. Demonstrated big-time talent early.
Imho, we are so far away from optimal human performance, people millennia from now will joke about how current training methods are the equivalent of blood sucking eels as a medical therapy that was done as late as the 1800s.
Hull ran about 200 steps per minute to run her 3:57.29 (smiling at the end per usual due to a PB I'm sure) during Kipyegon's 3:49.11, 13 months ago. What would it take to improve all the way to 3:50.83? Increase step length (2.09"), cadence (5.6spm) or some combination of the 2. I got her at around 202spm for a minute long span just after the pacers dropped out. So basically, to get to that astounding time, she needed to increase her cadence by 2spm and step length by 1.33". Put that way, it sounds significantly less insurmountable than 3:57.29 to 3:50.83.
After way too much research into bipedal animal runners, not only do I think running sub 3:00 for a 1500m for a man is possible, but I think it's possible for a woman to do so (both unassisted aka "clean" and given today's technology). Given that men haven't even run 600m at that pace, it may very well take a millennia to get there.... may even be sooner.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying because you are right - all these things clearly matter.
But I think this is a clear component with respect to the "staggering" nature of this performance - that it's not like Hull has been some middling "journeywoman" running in poorly paced, lower talent World Challenger meets who finally got her chance in the big time and just burst into prominence.
She has had the privilege of running in the worlds best venues, against the worlds best athletes with the worlds best conditions now for at least 24 months.
I guess the logic is for people struggling with the legitimacy of this is given all of these realities, it might have been more plausible to have seen a handful of races where maybe she challenged and stuck with a Kipyegon, Hassan, Tsegay etc for an extended part of the race and had maybe even run a few times in the 3.53/54's. But the reality is she's been a strong, if unspectacular main pack asset in these fields that only just broke 3.56 this season in what was then a breakthrough, done in near perfect conditions and now we see this 5 second+ explosion to very rare air where we also know a number of suspect characters (Yunxia and Dibaba specifically) are also breathing.
I think anyone who doesn't understand your POV on this is just willfully naive or in the dark! There were some seriously staggering performances from the meets. Here's the ones I'd ID. I might've missed some: Hull- well-covered here, I don't need to add anything
Sedjati- This guy is a signature talent and has been since his emergence in 2022. The backstory before 2021 is vague at best — soccer player? military? talent recognized and running sub-1:45 in less than a year? Anyhow, the performance level, associations and background raise questions not the progression as much. Tual- the rationale here HAS to be that Tual has been training at 80-85% the last few years and skating on immense talent. I think most would acknowledge his PB was due for some revision as most guys who make 2 global finals are 1:43-mid to high type guys. This 1:41 level is completely unexpected and I'd compare this to Hull for now as he's been in some fast races and hasn't shown near this level until 2024. Kemei Cheminingwa - This guy came out of nowhere, but as I've described in other threads, there are Kenyans who are big talents who simply need the opportunity to get to Europe. Last year, he was primed for a breakout as anyone who goes out in 1:16 leading Kinyamal and Wanyonyi and holds on to a 1:46.2 has clearly got some more in the tank. Our info on what his 2019-2022 were like is pretty limited. We know he joined Moraa's group in 2023 I believe and that the transition wasn't seamless, and his 800m racecraft needed a lot of work. Crestan- Here we have an athlete with a limited experience in being in super-fast races, and some injuries clearly (missed 2023 worlds), if you look at his early-career PBs you see strong promise — 47.0/1:46/3:46 at age 19 including a World Junior Bronze. Also the performance level here is not at the level of the first three.
Bell- The benefit of a Western athlete is we have a lot of info on here. This is a new-wave cross training success story from an athlete who could not stay healthy and was in and out of the sport. Demonstrated big-time talent early.
Really good breakdown. Hull and Tual are really the only two performances that REALLY jump out for me as being outliers. Sedjati may just be freaking good. Bell has never been healthy. Hull has basically never been injured and somehow made this jump.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying because you are right - all these things clearly matter.
But I think this is a clear component with respect to the "staggering" nature of this performance - that it's not like Hull has been some middling "journeywoman" running in poorly paced, lower talent World Challenger meets who finally got her chance in the big time and just burst into prominence.
She has had the privilege of running in the worlds best venues, against the worlds best athletes with the worlds best conditions now for at least 24 months.
I guess the logic is for people struggling with the legitimacy of this is given all of these realities, it might have been more plausible to have seen a handful of races where maybe she challenged and stuck with a Kipyegon, Hassan, Tsegay etc for an extended part of the race and had maybe even run a few times in the 3.53/54's. But the reality is she's been a strong, if unspectacular main pack asset in these fields that only just broke 3.56 this season in what was then a breakthrough, done in near perfect conditions and now we see this 5 second+ explosion to very rare air where we also know a number of suspect characters (Yunxia and Dibaba specifically) are also breathing.
I think anyone who doesn't understand your POV on this is just willfully naive or in the dark! There were some seriously staggering performances from the meets. Here's the ones I'd ID. I might've missed some: Hull- well-covered here, I don't need to add anything
Sedjati- This guy is a signature talent and has been since his emergence in 2022. The backstory before 2021 is vague at best — soccer player? military? talent recognized and running sub-1:45 in less than a year? Anyhow, the performance level, associations and background raise questions not the progression as much. Tual- the rationale here HAS to be that Tual has been training at 80-85% the last few years and skating on immense talent. I think most would acknowledge his PB was due for some revision as most guys who make 2 global finals are 1:43-mid to high type guys. This 1:41 level is completely unexpected and I'd compare this to Hull for now as he's been in some fast races and hasn't shown near this level until 2024. Kemei Cheminingwa - This guy came out of nowhere, but as I've described in other threads, there are Kenyans who are big talents who simply need the opportunity to get to Europe. Last year, he was primed for a breakout as anyone who goes out in 1:16 leading Kinyamal and Wanyonyi and holds on to a 1:46.2 has clearly got some more in the tank. Our info on what his 2019-2022 were like is pretty limited. We know he joined Moraa's group in 2023 I believe and that the transition wasn't seamless, and his 800m racecraft needed a lot of work. Crestan- Here we have an athlete with a limited experience in being in super-fast races, and some injuries clearly (missed 2023 worlds), if you look at his early-career PBs you see strong promise — 47.0/1:46/3:46 at age 19 including a World Junior Bronze. Also the performance level here is not at the level of the first three.
Bell- The benefit of a Western athlete is we have a lot of info on here. This is a new-wave cross training success story from an athlete who could not stay healthy and was in and out of the sport. Demonstrated big-time talent early.
You don't include Saint Nikki trials win in that list? 5+ second improvement in late 20s after years of high level training?
I think anyone who doesn't understand your POV on this is just willfully naive or in the dark! There were some seriously staggering performances from the meets. Here's the ones I'd ID. I might've missed some: Hull- well-covered here, I don't need to add anything
Sedjati- This guy is a signature talent and has been since his emergence in 2022. The backstory before 2021 is vague at best — soccer player? military? talent recognized and running sub-1:45 in less than a year? Anyhow, the performance level, associations and background raise questions not the progression as much. Tual- the rationale here HAS to be that Tual has been training at 80-85% the last few years and skating on immense talent. I think most would acknowledge his PB was due for some revision as most guys who make 2 global finals are 1:43-mid to high type guys. This 1:41 level is completely unexpected and I'd compare this to Hull for now as he's been in some fast races and hasn't shown near this level until 2024. Kemei Cheminingwa - This guy came out of nowhere, but as I've described in other threads, there are Kenyans who are big talents who simply need the opportunity to get to Europe. Last year, he was primed for a breakout as anyone who goes out in 1:16 leading Kinyamal and Wanyonyi and holds on to a 1:46.2 has clearly got some more in the tank. Our info on what his 2019-2022 were like is pretty limited. We know he joined Moraa's group in 2023 I believe and that the transition wasn't seamless, and his 800m racecraft needed a lot of work. Crestan- Here we have an athlete with a limited experience in being in super-fast races, and some injuries clearly (missed 2023 worlds), if you look at his early-career PBs you see strong promise — 47.0/1:46/3:46 at age 19 including a World Junior Bronze. Also the performance level here is not at the level of the first three.
Bell- The benefit of a Western athlete is we have a lot of info on here. This is a new-wave cross training success story from an athlete who could not stay healthy and was in and out of the sport. Demonstrated big-time talent early.
Opinion on your ID'd athletes:
Sedjati: I don't know if much has changed for me here and I agree with you - the progression isn't a thing because he's gone 1.44.91, 1.43.69, 1.43.06 and now 1.41.56 in 4 years as a "pro". I hate to be here but I am - We have just seen too much "out of nowhere" talent from North Africa let us down to be able to sit here and not be somewhat skeptical. Stockholm didn't pass the optics for me but whatever, I might just be jaded.
Tual: I'll tell you one thing that jumped off the screen for me with him, the fact that after just running histories fifth fastest time ever - faster than the likes of Coe, Cruz et al and ripping 2.4 seconds off his PR to a historically high level of performance, he was able to bound off on a spritely little celebration run. At least the Kenyan boys looked tired - who ever knew it was so easy to run sub 1.42 - must be the spikes. You know what else I find funny? It's the "well he's French and it's a home Olympics" narrative that is used to justify incredible performances. Yeah and?! As if the motivation and incentive in a home Olympics is any higher than an Olympics anywhere else or to be honest any other season with a major championships in it. Again, I just don't know what to think - it's not like France has been immune to MD athletes and "indiscretions" in the past (Florent Lacasse, Foaud Chouki just to name a few).
Cheminingwa: Honestly had never even heard his name before this race. He's so unknown his WA profile doesn't seem to exist either. You know he does have the benefit of being so unknown and not really exposed to this level of race before that we had/have no idea of what his level is or was.
Crestan: I agree with this take. 1.42.43 is blazing, but he runs about as perfect a race as possible here when you watch just him closely. He's 50.2 at the bell but comes out of lane 3 and get's the poll line totally unimpeded. His 300m from 4-700 is pretty much perfect - he goes 13.2, 12.8, 12.9 and again it's all right on the inside of lane one with no mess. he even gets a perfect run in the home straight - so perfect that he actually makes one small error and moves into lane 2 for no reason at all before correcting it again in the 50m - but he has to pass absolutely nobody. When you talk about an under-exposed talent getting the perfect run - this is a good example and not Jessica Hull.
Bell: Let's be honest she definitely has to raise at least an eyebrow. I get the health/motivation thing but 4.12 to 4.03 indoors to 4.03 outdoors to 3.56 is still a wow. But a couple of things - 1) clearly staying healthy and having some volume of racing matters, 2) she definitely has no record of racing at this level consistently, 3) 3.56.54 is a great time but that performance is now very much in the "peloton" so to speak - even if at the higher end of it. Hey let's see if she runs sub 3.51 this year ;)
You want to investigate me, roll the dice and take your chances.
I run fartleks 300 yards from 4000 aborigines who are trained to outkick me, so don't think for one second that you can come down here... flash a graph, and make me nervous.
Bell: Let's be honest she definitely has to raise at least an eyebrow. I get the health/motivation thing but 4.12 to 4.03 indoors to 4.03 outdoors to 3.56 is still a wow. But a couple of things - 1) clearly staying healthy and having some volume of racing matters, 2) she definitely has no record of racing at this level consistently, 3) 3.56.54 is a great time but that performance is now very much in the "peloton" so to speak - even if at the higher end of it. Hey let's see if she runs sub 3.51 this year ;)
My background is in the 400, and I read a lot when I was younger about the huge benefit Roger Black derived from training with someone better than him, namely Kriss Akabusi and Todd Bennett. Eventually Roger became the better runner but Kriss and Todd got him there.
Kriss Akabusi wrote:
I met Roger in the autumn of 1984, when I'd just come back from my first Olympic Games in Los Angeles. I was in the army at the time and had moved down to Southampton to train with Mike Smith, the best coach in the country. Todd Bennett, who had also been in LA, was in my training group. One day a new lad appeared - a gangly, spotty, well-spoken youth. I remember watching the incredible ease with which Roger bounded over hurdles, and thinking, "Gosh, he's strong." He'd just finished his A-levels and was a very good junior English schools athlete, but he had never trained before. Most athletes turn up for coaching all ready to go - I was sponsored by Adidas and Todd by Nike, so we had matching uniforms with logos down to our socks - but Roger turned up in an old jumper and a huge pair of canvas shoes which looked like boats .
By January 1985 it was clear that we had a talent here. The "internationals" - Todd and I - trained twice a day, six days a week, while the other athletes trained once a day, five days a week. Pretty soon Roger was promoted to our training group and we got to know each other a bit. When we were going to the indoor championships in Birmingham, I arranged to drive up with Roger, and that was the real beginning of our friendship.
Even though I was the recognised international athlete, it was easy to see that he was better than I was - he had pure speed and aggression. There was a sense of joy and anticipation in seeing what he was capable of. I respected his talent and I think he respected my knowledge and seniority - there was an element of hero-worship to begin with.
Kriss Akabusi, 40 (right), began his international athletics career in 1983 and helped the British 4 x 400m relay team to secure the silver in the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics. He went on to win two gold medals in the 1990 Europ...
Georgia Bell (1:59 / 3:56) commutes to Trevor Painter's group to train with Keely Hodgkinson (1:55), Erin Wallace (1:59 / 4:06), and Sarah Healy (2:00 / 3:57). Trevor is 2024's version of Mike Smith; the best coach in the UK.
I do find your 4:12 to 3:56 characterisation a bit disingenuous.
Her recent 1500/mile progression is 2017o: Last year of awful experience at UC Berkeley; 5x 1500 (4:25). 2018–2021: No track races. 2022o: 2x mile (4:33). 2023o: 4x 1500 (4:06); 1x mile. 2024i: 7x 1500 (4:03); wins UK trials. 2024o: 7x 1500 (3:56); wins UK trials; 1x (800) 1:59.93.
She ran 2:03 (i.e. ~4:02 potential) 10 years ago and only figured out how to stay healthy post-collegiately.
Georgia Bell wrote:
I was there for two years and had two different stress fractures. I had a bunch of injuries. I was ether in a boot or coming back, I was never at full fitness. I was just mentally and physically burnt out. So, I just went into the working world. I never thought I would set foot on a track again
Georgia Bell wrote:
I grew up racing Katie Snowden and Alex Bell, I watched them competing at the Olympics and think ‘I used to beat those girls when I was younger, I wonder what could have been if I’d kept going?’
Georgia Bell wrote:
He (Trevor) sets me a plan remotely and I’ll go to Manchester for maybe one weekend a month for training and I go to any camps and things like that. I do a lot of training on my own, but I am able to jump into the sessions with the girls when I am in Manchester.
Imho, we are so far away from optimal human performance, people millennia from now will joke about how current training methods are the equivalent of blood sucking eels as a medical therapy that was done as late as the 1800s.
Hull ran about 200 steps per minute to run her 3:57.29 (smiling at the end per usual due to a PB I'm sure) during Kipyegon's 3:49.11, 13 months ago. What would it take to improve all the way to 3:50.83? Increase step length (2.09"), cadence (5.6spm) or some combination of the 2. I got her at around 202spm for a minute long span just after the pacers dropped out. So basically, to get to that astounding time, she needed to increase her cadence by 2spm and step length by 1.33". Put that way, it sounds significantly less insurmountable than 3:57.29 to 3:50.83.
After way too much research into bipedal animal runners, not only do I think running sub 3:00 for a 1500m for a man is possible, but I think it's possible for a woman to do so (both unassisted aka "clean" and given today's technology). Given that men haven't even run 600m at that pace, it may very well take a millennia to get there.... may even be sooner.
My background is in the 400, and I read a lot when I was younger about the huge benefit Roger Black derived from training with someone better than him, namely Kriss Akabusi and Todd Bennett. Eventually Roger became the better runner but Kriss and Todd got him there.
Georgia Bell (1:59 / 3:56) commutes to Trevor Painter's group to train with Keely Hodgkinson (1:55), Erin Wallace (1:59 / 4:06), and Sarah Healy (2:00 / 3:57). Trevor is 2024's version of Mike Smith; the best coach in the UK.
I do find your 4:12 to 3:56 characterisation a bit disingenuous.
Her recent 1500/mile progression is 2017o: Last year of awful experience at UC Berkeley; 5x 1500 (4:25). 2018–2021: No track races. 2022o: 2x mile (4:33). 2023o: 4x 1500 (4:06); 1x mile. 2024i: 7x 1500 (4:03); wins UK trials. 2024o: 7x 1500 (3:56); wins UK trials; 1x (800) 1:59.93.
She ran 2:03 (i.e. ~4:02 potential) 10 years ago and only figured out how to stay healthy post-collegiately.
Yeah, and that's why I said that even though it still has to raise an eyebrow there are a number of solid factors that don't push it into the implausible.
Disingenuous? Those are the facts. In fact what I was doing was actually suggesting the total opposite, that with all things factors considered it's not that crazy to me at all.
So go make yourself a nice Earl Grey and calm down sunshine.
So I said I still am giving the BOTD here - but it's really by a thread and these are the primary reasons why.
To be honest, if Hull has actually been a less accomplished/relevant athlete over this distance in the last 2-3 season it might incredibly be more convincing. Someone bought up Ruth Wysocki earlier and how she busted out a huge PR in the 1984 trials to beat Slaney. But she basically never ran the 1500m but was elite over 800m for many years so it's not a huge stretch to say she was just super untapped over the distance. Maybe if the 3000/5000 had been her premier events with the occasional foray into the 1500m then it's more palatable.
But that's not the case here. Hull is a locked in DL level athlete and has been now for at least 2 seasons. She's run the 1500m/mile in Monaco the last 2 years, same with Brussels - these are fast venues (no less "fast" than the Stade Sébastien Charléty) with wavelight and with respect to maybe the fastest of them all, Monaco, and "pacemaking", she has had Kipyegon there running the same perfect splits as a few days ago in Paris.
People need to stop it with the spikes. Trust me, the Zoom Vic spikes she wore are fundamentally no different to the ones of the previous two seasons. Some nice updates to the geometry of the foam which is purely visual and the zoom bags are the same. You want to know the biggest difference? They have gone from 6 spike pins to 4 (which I love btw you don't even need them) which probably saves them 10-12g in receptacle/spike weight.
So really we are left with training/focus/attitude. As you pointed out, does this explain how we go from front end of the pack, through to breaking away from the pack right behind the WR holder and best female MD runner ever? Does training work like this? Was she training so sub-optimally the last 2-3 seasons (despite being a 3.57 runner which is still very very good) and whatever the change was just flipped a switch and opened the floodgates? That's what we really have to believe here. If you choose to of course....
This is a top post. She's been wearing the so-called "super-spikes" for 5 years, she's been racing at a high level the entire time, she's made multiple world finals, and she showed excellent improvement at NOP and UAC. She's had so many "perfect" races that resulted in a 3:57-3:59 or 4:15-4:18 time. Despite that, she just dropped 7 seconds in a single year to catapult herself into a position as an all-time great, and she did it in a year where she moved away from the scrutiny of Oregon and a pro group. I just can't give that the benefit of the doubt without some serious mental gymnastics.
What about the other seasoned athletes in the race who imrpvoed their PBs by 2, 3, 4 and 7 seconds in that race?
Didn’t say there was egregious surging. You analyzed it more than me, so I’ll take your word for it. Many times I see people look at times without any consideration for distance run, wind, weather, pacing, drafting- and it can all add up to make a great run even faster. Sounds like you took that into consideration.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying because you are right - all these things clearly matter.
But I think this is a clear component with respect to the "staggering" nature of this performance - that it's not like Hull has been some middling "journeywoman" running in poorly paced, lower talent World Challenger meets who finally got her chance in the big time and just burst into prominence.
She has had the privilege of running in the worlds best venues, against the worlds best athletes with the worlds best conditions now for at least 24 months.
I guess the logic is for people struggling with the legitimacy of this is given all of these realities, it might have been more plausible to have seen a handful of races where maybe she challenged and stuck with a Kipyegon, Hassan, Tsegay etc for an extended part of the race and had maybe even run a few times in the 3.53/54's. But the reality is she's been a strong, if unspectacular main pack asset in these fields that only just broke 3.56 this season in what was then a breakthrough, done in near perfect conditions and now we see this 5 second+ explosion to very rare air where we also know a number of suspect characters (Yunxia and Dibaba specifically) are also breathing.
Again - others in the race improved a lot too. How do you explain them?
My best 1500 was 3:47.4. My 2nd best ever was 3:51.0. I never doped.
At 3:47 you obviously didn't.
A bit harsh from Armstronglivs, but it is actually a good point:
We are not talking about some fairly mediocre runner (by global standards) popping a less mediocre time at some point (probably in his early 20s).
We are talking about a global elite, a professional who has raced in countless time trials perfectly set up for PBs, every year of her adult life, who at age 27 suddenly runs almost seven seconds faster than the previous year.
Can you see the difference? (Hint: Flower Boy's "me-me-me" insertion of himself into this is irrelevant.)
others in the race improved a lot too. How do you explain them?
Who else has improved by roughly seven seconds, 2023 to 2024?
Name one.
I don't think there are any, and there definitely are not any who are 27 and have been as endlessly time-trialed as Hull. (Including 4 Diamond League races in 2022, and 6 in 2023!)
Let me guess, "She jUst haD tO gEt in the RiGht rAce." 🤡🤡🤡🙈🙈🙈
A bit harsh from Armstronglivs, but it is actually a good point:
We are not talking about some fairly mediocre runner (by global standards) popping a less mediocre time at some point (probably in his early 20s).
We are talking about a global elite, a professional who has raced in countless time trials perfectly set up for PBs, every year of her adult life, who at age 27 suddenly runs almost seven seconds faster than the previous year.
Can you see the difference? (Hint: Flower Boy's "me-me-me" insertion of himself into this is irrelevant.)
“Countless” time trials “perfectly” set up. Hyperbole much? She *did* get many PBs in those years. But how many races was she in where she had the opportunity to follow someone on literal WR pace? That rare chance, combined with ideal conditions in terms of track/weather (evidenced by the outstanding performances across the meet), together with her peaking for perhaps the most importance majors of her career - easily accounts for a breakthrough, in my view. The ability of the mind to push the body to new physical limits is remarkable in many domains, in and out of athletics.
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