It doesn't say that. It took a other 8 years for a Kenyan to medal. That isn't the international dominance that suddenly accelerated in the 80's and 90's with the interesting coincidence of EPO. We now see that Kenyan success is built on a foundation of doping.
"It doesn't say that."? What doesn't say what?
That's right, Kenyans in 1956 weren't dominant on the world scene. What an observation, congratulation.
Kenyans IMMEDIATELY could compete against the best in the world (they had a higher level than maybe 150 countries have today, over 60 years later).
What was the reason for this? Doping? It seems we agree here that doping was not the reason.
It's not one reason, it's many reasons. They are discussed since decades. And those same reasons enables one tribe to dominate the Marathon in astonishing fashion today. Doping obviously is also a factor. Trying to make it seem like doping is the only reason for this is a disgrace.
2:01:57 in a Marathon debut at age 23 - how many Europeans, US-Americans, Australians could do this while using the same doping (if he did) as Kelvin Kiptum? I say none. And you?
You don't read your own posts. 7th in an Olympic event doesn't say a nation could immediately compete at the top level of a sport. You could find the 7th place-getter in any Olympic event from just about any country. It has some small significance individually but none nationally. It isn't a group or "national" achievement - such as it is. It doesn't suggest of itself that a nation will come to dominate a given sport to an extraordinary degree - as Kenya has.
You persistently fail to grasp the argument here. It isn't that doping is the ONLY reason for Kenyan success but that it has inflated it - much as it did the E Germans in the Cold War era.
Doping extends right through sports but that we see some of the very best were doping (look at the names above as but a small sample) shows that the best indeed dope. It is also how they become the best.
You don't understand why athletes dope. You have this quaint view that the best athletes are made of different stuff morally and ethically from other athletes and not just physically - and are above doping. Apart from being paragons they know they can beat any doper. Really? Against this, we see former champions who have doped - in all sports - and world records transparently set through doping - Kratochvilova, Koch, Flojo - that remain untouchable even today. Jose Canseco, the baseball player, summed it up - "doping makes an average athlete good, a good athlete outstanding and an exceptional athlete invincible." And there we have its rationale.
Sure the belief in doping sometimes impacts talented athletes too. They are not immune. But you said it was "typical", and then you said something much less that "lists include ...". And you keep saying things like "it is also how they become the best". Producing a list of names which includes better runners does not establish "typical" or "how they become the best" -- especially of that list is from athletes from other sports or events. None of the names you provided - Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Ramzi, Gatlin, Houlihan, Kratochvilova, Koch, Flojo, Jose Canseco - have run a sub-2:09 marathon.
"None of the names you provided - Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Ramzi, Gatlin, Houlihan, Kratochvilova, Koch, Flojo, Jose Canseco - have run a sub-2:09 marathon."(quote)
I actually burst out laughing at that. So marathon runners aren't doping because Marion Jones et al didn't run a sub-2.09 marathon? Are you really that dense? The point was the doping is in every sport - which certainly includes distance running, as the lists of busts has shown. What you completely ignored - as you always do - was the list of Kenyan distance runners - male and female - that have included Olympic and world championship medallists in the marathon and half marathon and world record holders who have been busted for doping, and who I didn't specifically name because it has been done on this site many times before and would take most of the page of a thread.
Your view on doping is actually quite simple. You don't see the existence of doping in the sport you favour (chiefly marathon running) beyond those who are caught. This is despite all the evidence that dopers are rarely caught. Hence, what you can't see doesn't exist.
It would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct - because everything you argue, no matter how dense and convoluted, comes back to that point.
Sure the belief in doping sometimes impacts talented athletes too. They are not immune. But you said it was "typical", and then you said something much less that "lists include ...". And you keep saying things like "it is also how they become the best". Producing a list of names which includes better runners does not establish "typical" or "how they become the best" -- especially of that list is from athletes from other sports or events. None of the names you provided - Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Ramzi, Gatlin, Houlihan, Kratochvilova, Koch, Flojo, Jose Canseco - have run a sub-2:09 marathon.
"None of the names you provided - Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Ramzi, Gatlin, Houlihan, Kratochvilova, Koch, Flojo, Jose Canseco - have run a sub-2:09 marathon."(quote)
I actually burst out laughing at that. So marathon runners aren't doping because Marion Jones et al didn't run a sub-2.09 marathon? Are you really that dense? The point was the doping is in every sport - which certainly includes distance running, as the lists of busts has shown. What you completely ignored - as you always do - was the list of Kenyan distance runners - male and female - that have included Olympic and world championship medallists in the marathon and half marathon and world record holders who have been busted for doping, and who I didn't specifically name because it has been done on this site many times before and would take most of the page of a thread.
This thread is about sub-2:09 runners after all.
Once again, you said it was "typical", apparently on the basis that "lists include ...". And you keep saying things like "it is also how they become the best".
I did not completely ignore your list, but said it fails to establish "typical" and "how they become ...".
Your view on doping is actually quite simple. You don't see the existence of doping in the sport you favour (chiefly marathon running) beyond those who are caught. This is despite all the evidence that dopers are rarely caught. Hence, what you can't see doesn't exist.
It would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct - because everything you argue, no matter how dense and convoluted, comes back to that point.
That is simple, but that is not my view.
Of course doping "exists". It exists worldwide, also in places like Russia, China, India, Europe, and USA. If these threads were only about "existence", it would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct.
In my nuanced and complex view, talent, training, altitude, mentality, and tactics exist too.
Your view on doping is actually quite simple. You don't see the existence of doping in the sport you favour (chiefly marathon running) beyond those who are caught. This is despite all the evidence that dopers are rarely caught. Hence, what you can't see doesn't exist.
It would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct - because everything you argue, no matter how dense and convoluted, comes back to that point.
Did you want to take a second attempt at explaining Kenyan and Ethiopian world dominance in 1986, and more generally in the whole of the 1980s? What doping existed in Kenya and Ethiopia and worldwide in 1986? Do the same factors carry over to the '90s, when EPO entered the sport of cycling, or are they magically canceled by the existence of doping?
Your view on doping is actually quite simple. You don't see the existence of doping in the sport you favour (chiefly marathon running) beyond those who are caught. This is despite all the evidence that dopers are rarely caught. Hence, what you can't see doesn't exist.
It would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct - because everything you argue, no matter how dense and convoluted, comes back to that point.
That is simple, but that is not my view.
Of course doping "exists". It exists worldwide, also in places like Russia, China, India, Europe, and USA. If these threads were only about "existence", it would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct.
In my nuanced and complex view, talent, training, altitude, mentality, and tactics exist too.
But doping doesn't help the best - if it at all exists in the best - and certainly not the best Kenyan marathon runners ..
Your view on doping is actually quite simple. You don't see the existence of doping in the sport you favour (chiefly marathon running) beyond those who are caught. This is despite all the evidence that dopers are rarely caught. Hence, what you can't see doesn't exist.
It would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct - because everything you argue, no matter how dense and convoluted, comes back to that point.
Did you want to take a second attempt at explaining Kenyan and Ethiopian world dominance in 1986, and more generally in the whole of the 1980s? What doping existed in Kenya and Ethiopia and worldwide in 1986? Do the same factors carry over to the '90s, when EPO entered the sport of cycling, or are they magically canceled by the existence of doping?
"None of the names you provided - Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Ramzi, Gatlin, Houlihan, Kratochvilova, Koch, Flojo, Jose Canseco - have run a sub-2:09 marathon."(quote)
I actually burst out laughing at that. So marathon runners aren't doping because Marion Jones et al didn't run a sub-2.09 marathon? Are you really that dense? The point was the doping is in every sport - which certainly includes distance running, as the lists of busts has shown. What you completely ignored - as you always do - was the list of Kenyan distance runners - male and female - that have included Olympic and world championship medallists in the marathon and half marathon and world record holders who have been busted for doping, and who I didn't specifically name because it has been done on this site many times before and would take most of the page of a thread.
This thread is about sub-2:09 runners after all.
Once again, you said it was "typical", apparently on the basis that "lists include ...". And you keep saying things like "it is also how they become the best".
I did not completely ignore your list, but said it fails to establish "typical" and "how they become ...".
The list of Kenyan violations has shown that most are elite distance runners. They are necessarily a fraction of those actually doping. Unless doping does not aid performance - a view only doping deniers maintain - it aided theirs to achieve what they had.
Did you want to take a second attempt at explaining Kenyan and Ethiopian world dominance in 1986, and more generally in the whole of the 1980s? What doping existed in Kenya and Ethiopia and worldwide in 1986? Do the same factors carry over to the '90s, when EPO entered the sport of cycling, or are they magically canceled by the existence of doping?
Your view on doping is actually quite simple. You don't see the existence of doping in the sport you favour (chiefly marathon running) beyond those who are caught. This is despite all the evidence that dopers are rarely caught. Hence, what you can't see doesn't exist. It would save a lot of time and space on a thread if you were able to be so succinct - because everything you argue, no matter how dense and convoluted, comes back to that point.
Your question just confirms what I said above.
As I already explained, my view is that doping existed in the 1980s, worldwide. Not sure that included EPO though, since Coevett says it is unanimous that that only appeared around 1992. It is also questionable to what extent it existed in Kenya and Ethiopia, but let's say it existed already -- full force full throttle doping surely existed in Eastern and Western Europe, the USA, and Russia.
Your answer just avoids the question with your usual song and tap dance. You think yourself this septuagenarian grand wizard of track performance history -- surely you can explain how these two poor countries with shoestring budgets and frail infrastructure spanked the rest of the world so hard before high octane EPO, while leaving me out of your expert explanation.
Once again, you said it was "typical", apparently on the basis that "lists include ...". And you keep saying things like "it is also how they become the best".
I did not completely ignore your list, but said it fails to establish "typical" and "how they become ...".
The list of Kenyan violations has shown that most are elite distance runners. They are necessarily a fraction of those actually doping. Unless doping does not aid performance - a view only doping deniers maintain - it aided theirs to achieve what they had.
That's a rather self-serving and rather trivial assessment. Depending on what you want to mean by "elite", the only athletes in testing pools at all are elite athletes, and therefore every list of busts is composed of elite athletes.
Contrary to your perception, most of the names on any list are not the "most talented" runners, but typically nobodies you never heard of, until they were busted, running mediocre times.
As I already explained, my view is that doping existed in the 1980s, worldwide. Not sure that included EPO though, since Coevett says it is unanimous that that only appeared around 1992. It is also questionable to what extent it existed in Kenya and Ethiopia, but let's say it existed already -- full force full throttle doping surely existed in Eastern and Western Europe, the USA, and Russia.
Your answer just avoids the question with your usual song and tap dance. You think yourself this septuagenarian grand wizard of track performance history -- surely you can explain how these two poor countries with shoestring budgets and frail infrastructure spanked the rest of the world so hard before high octane EPO, while leaving me out of your expert explanation.
Stop lying you idiot. I've stated many times that EPO could have been used by those with the best connections, perhaps by Aouita, perhaps by the Spanish, as early as 1985. The most common viewpoint here is that by the Barcelona Olympics a lot of the elite were using it. I doubt if it was on sale in Kenyan High Street pharmacies for 2:12 Kenyan marathoners much before 92 or so.
That's right, Kenyans in 1956 weren't dominant on the world scene. What an observation, congratulation.
Kenyans IMMEDIATELY could compete against the best in the world (they had a higher level than maybe 150 countries have today, over 60 years later).
What was the reason for this? Doping? It seems we agree here that doping was not the reason.
It's not one reason, it's many reasons. They are discussed since decades. And those same reasons enables one tribe to dominate the Marathon in astonishing fashion today. Doping obviously is also a factor. Trying to make it seem like doping is the only reason for this is a disgrace.
2:01:57 in a Marathon debut at age 23 - how many Europeans, US-Americans, Australians could do this while using the same doping (if he did) as Kelvin Kiptum? I say none. And you?
You don't read your own posts. 7th in an Olympic event doesn't say a nation could immediately compete at the top level of a sport. You could find the 7th place-getter in any Olympic event from just about any country. It has some small significance individually but none nationally. It isn't a group or "national" achievement - such as it is. It doesn't suggest of itself that a nation will come to dominate a given sport to an extraordinary degree - as Kenya has.
You persistently fail to grasp the argument here. It isn't that doping is the ONLY reason for Kenyan success but that it has inflated it - much as it did the E Germans in the Cold War era.
For sure it says that Kenya almost immediately could compete very close to the absolute top. No German was ahead of him. No US American. No Italian, no pole, no czech, no finn, no swede, no french. Despite having decades of experience in this nations, hundreds of athletics clubs and a lot of tradition and some scientific approach . Nurmi, Zatopek, Haegg, Ladoumegue, Harbig, Lovelock, Cunningham to name a few. What was the background in Kenya? Already some European coaches? Some club structure? Definitely nothing compared to the top European nations.
The Kenyan success is not the result of doping (for sure there is doping in Kenya, mobody denies this) but of great all-around conditions (no need to list them again, any running fan knows them) for running fast in the longer events.
How was Henry Rono able to break four different world record in a single season? While little overweight even at his best? Because his doping was more sophisticated to the European version? Nonsense. Because he was enormously gifted. Probably combined with extremely hard training. Does someone have good infos about Rono's training?
My initial question in my last post here was not necessary.
The most common viewpoint here is that by the Barcelona Olympics a lot of the elite were using EPO.
But not by some Brits, correct? No?, but only by cyclists. No?, but only by sprinters. No?, but only by blacks. Never ever would a white British Marathon runner use it. No?, but only some strange women.
The list of Kenyan violations has shown that most are elite distance runners. They are necessarily a fraction of those actually doping. Unless doping does not aid performance - a view only doping deniers maintain - it aided theirs to achieve what they had.
That's a rather self-serving and rather trivial assessment. Depending on what you want to mean by "elite", the only athletes in testing pools at all are elite athletes, and therefore every list of busts is composed of elite athletes.
Contrary to your perception, most of the names on any list are not the "most talented" runners, but typically nobodies you never heard of, until they were busted, running mediocre times.
You are not informed. Look at the list of Kenyan athletes busted. The only top athlete at that level conspicuous by his absence - so far - is Kipchoge.
Of course a lot more than eight were caught this year, among other things because so many Kenyans dope and there are for example (by my count today) 98 Kenyan 2:07 runners and 131 Kenyan 2:08 runners, but only 2 with a 2:01, 2 with a 2:02, 9 with a 2:03, 20 with a 2:04 etc.
"So far in 2022, 45 athletes have been sanctioned for Anti-Doping Rule Violations by the AIU and Anti-Doping Agency of Kenya (ADAK), with over 20 other cases being under review in the worst year for the sport since the crisis escalated in the run-up to the Rio 2016 Olympics in Brazil." 24/11/2022
- The most conservative estimate by WADA is that at least 10 times as many athletes will be doping as caught (David Howman). That means there would be minimally 500-600 Kenyan athletes currently doping. However it is is also postulated by WADA that the figure could be even 4 or 5 times higher than that, which would mean the numbers currently doping would be well over 2000 Kenyan athletes, based just on the numbers of violations recorded so far this year. So in a country which has an acknowledged doping crisis, what are the chances that some of their best athletes are doping?
Of course a lot more than eight were caught this year, among other things because so many Kenyans dope and there are for example (by my count today) 98 Kenyan 2:07 runners and 131 Kenyan 2:08 runners, but only 2 with a 2:01, 2 with a 2:02, 9 with a 2:03, 20 with a 2:04 etc.
All "typical nobodies" - according to rekrunner. I guess that only leaves Kipchoge.
You don't read your own posts. 7th in an Olympic event doesn't say a nation could immediately compete at the top level of a sport. You could find the 7th place-getter in any Olympic event from just about any country. It has some small significance individually but none nationally. It isn't a group or "national" achievement - such as it is. It doesn't suggest of itself that a nation will come to dominate a given sport to an extraordinary degree - as Kenya has.
You persistently fail to grasp the argument here. It isn't that doping is the ONLY reason for Kenyan success but that it has inflated it - much as it did the E Germans in the Cold War era.
For sure it says that Kenya almost immediately could compete very close to the absolute top. No German was ahead of him. No US American. No Italian, no pole, no czech, no finn, no swede, no french. Despite having decades of experience in this nations, hundreds of athletics clubs and a lot of tradition and some scientific approach . Nurmi, Zatopek, Haegg, Ladoumegue, Harbig, Lovelock, Cunningham to name a few. What was the background in Kenya? Already some European coaches? Some club structure? Definitely nothing compared to the top European nations.
The Kenyan success is not the result of doping (for sure there is doping in Kenya, mobody denies this) but of great all-around conditions (no need to list them again, any running fan knows them) for running fast in the longer events.
How was Henry Rono able to break four different world record in a single season? While little overweight even at his best? Because his doping was more sophisticated to the European version? Nonsense. Because he was enormously gifted. Probably combined with extremely hard training. Does someone have good infos about Rono's training?
My initial question in my last post here was not necessary.
7th by one individual in one race is a pretty strained argument to suggest a nationality had significant athletic potential. I could probably find a Ceylonese who came 7th somewhere in the distant past. Kenya didn't show that it had any real talent in running till Kiprugut and Keino in the late '60's - and certainly not as much talent as both Australia and New Zealand had demonstrated at that time. But, as we see, they have never doped like we have seen the Kenyans do. Few do. Only Russia and India are worse.
