Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

Of course I meant "A Clean Pair of Heels"

As I said in an earlier post RPTD is not my terminology. I borrow it with grace and thanks from a friend AC - are you there AC? I mention Dr Van Aiken and Webster and also give my source for RPTD to illustrate to you sprinter800 that in training mid-distance and distance runners there is little originality and all or nearly all is borrowed we learn from each other and in some cases from our own experimentation and observation of the effect.

Paul

I think the young east africans tend to be far better developed aerobically before they even start to train seriously for distance running. As Mottram says, this is why your typical 'western' distance runner is always 'playing catch up' in terms of aerobic development.

Thus your typical early-career African can get away with running hard every day, while your typical early-career 'western' runner can probably not tolerate the same training.

This makes a long, consistent and progressive base of aerobic mileage absolutely vital to the vast majority of 'western' distance runners, to enable them to gradually aquire the ability to tolerate such frequent fast/threshold running - and reap its rewards.

The key and problematic word here is 'gradually' - as Wejo and others have said many times - the real success with this approach will be years down the line.

"I posed the question earlier to Renato, but unfortunately he didn't have a chance to respond- how do you explain the 18/19 year old Africans who run 12:59 each year-some run 27:00. Lets not bother with the snide jokes about them being 22 and not 18. The bottom line is that young guys are running these times with only 2-4 years of training that we cannot seem to approach.

Perhaps it is the altitude from birth thing."

If I remember correctly the figure Mr. Vigil gave me was that the difference between a 19 year old NA male and an East African male was 19,000 miles of cardio respiratory adaptation. That answered the question for me as to why-in terms of a developmental stage/training age question. Start throwing in things such as altitude, and (lack of) proper footwear -consider how strong their lower limbs are compared to NA; as we put our kids in shoes and let them sit on the couch from the age of 1-2 yrs old; whereas the EA are walking/running everywhere all the time with no shoes or footwear that is far less supportive than those we wear. If I start adding up the figures it starts to make sense; NA athletes take the years (4-5) of high school and half if not all of university (2-5) to get the same base/foundation of fitness in before they really start to see their athletic potential (which brings up an entire seperate question regarding long term athlete development). An EA athlete goes through this development much earlier because they have to- it's a survival/way of life decision in that part of the world; the family needs a young man to herd cattle when he is anywhere from 8-10 years old (I'm just hypothesizing here) so by the time he is 16-18 years old he is quite fit, and perhaps very susceptible/primed to high intensity styles of training.

This is all well and good, but there are Europeans that have run the middle distances as fast, or almost anyway, as the Africans without necessarily having this background. The longer distances (5000m and up) may benefit more from this aerobic "kick start".

Just looking at the Brits from the '80's - Ovett, Moorcroft, Coe, Cram and Elliott (all world-record holders or Olympic medalists). They all had different coaches - Harry Wilson, John Anderson, Peter Coe, Jimmy Hedley and Kim MacDonald - who influenced each of them for much of their careers (perhaps not Elliott as I'm not as familiar with his history). The importance was the meshing of ideas to the athlete and a belief (presumably) in the approach or at least in the coach anyway by the athlete. Even John Walker (with Arch Jelley as an obvious Lydiard disciple) had his program adapted to what worked for him, and not just Lydiardism for its own sake. Within the scope of the Brit training there are going to be similarities and differences of emphasis - as has been alluded to in this thread. I feel that as long as there is a sound basis in physiology (and a good coach/athlete rapore) that athletes can be developed. Frankly, Lydiard/Igloi or any other theorist has little to do with the actual development - rather it is the adaptive process for each athlete. Perhaps the identification of how best to develop a specific talent is more appropos - that is the task of each coach. That is what I get most from Renato is to see each athlete (within the context of a variety of "types") as an individual and determine how best to develop that person's unique talents. This gets back to the topic of this thread in that Event Specificity is too often lost in the search for a common methodology (e.g Lydiardism) couched in physiological terms (MVO2, etc.). Is that what you were asking in the first place, Skuj? Or was the thread just another exercise in expounding on a topic by any number of "talking heads"?

sprinter800 wrote:

um i actually excluded Mr Canovo from my comment!!!

I've been unfair and i agree with the PI. Some are borrowing knowledge from other people and using it as their own, whereas others are being original, are being individuals. Thinking out the facts on their own and coming to personal conclusions.

I don't know why i can't get someone who has thought into this longer area to discuss. Cram spent 6 months of the year doing base long running, El Gerrouj was coached by a Lydiard follower, my recent viewing into Rodal and Borzakovsky showed 100km per week peaks in preparation training. Coe was more XC and 3000m as a 16 year old than anything else. All of the Kenyans utilise this deep base of long running, as do the Ethiopians.

Am i just on my own trip here? Skuj lend me your thoughts. Mr Canovo please.

STOP CALLING HIM MR CANOVO, that is not his name.

Also, how can you accuse people of borrowing knowledge, what is that supposed to mean?

Cram didn't spend six months of the year doing base training.

El Gerrouj wasn't coached by a Lydiard follower, but by a Coe follower.

Borzakovsky ran up to 80 mpw

The best Kenyans ans Ethiopians don't stray from speed for long periods of time, their coaches know that would be foolish.

Any more misinformation you want to post?

Skuj wrote:

I'm certain that Andrew Skujins will now destroy this great thread. I KNOW he registered my name. Any search for posts by "Skuja" will reveal that very clearly. Oh well. This was fun for a while.

Later.....

skuj, only your own paranoia and ego will destroy this thread. So there is another guy named skuj. No one cares but you.

Discuss.

(and "enough already" is correct, "sprinter800" is the one going around in circles of his own imagination. It's great to think outside the box, but you gotta get the facts right first, and as "enough already" pointed out, your "facts" were false.)

Come on Skuj don't you love me?

I agree with Sub 3 and the idea of a progressive buildup. One is a buildup over years (many say 10 is the developmental period) another like the buildup over a season (like 12 months), even the buildup in a single session is progressive. General principle???

Only partially Toby – I do agree that all these bits like VO2 max and LT are essential, and its good science can verify them, however I think there is a certain feel to each one that can be felt by the athlete. Tuning into these feelings is more precise I think that estimating where they should exist, although of course we can use science to get close to where they should be.

I think Lydiard covered the bits as well as the feelings.

The 22 mile runs were for depletion of glycogen stores specifically so therefore were run above AT. I think they also served as the base for the AnT runs which also occurred weekly but a little later on. The AT supports the AnT. The AnT then supports the lactate tolerance work. The volume of running (all with an emphasis on correct posture, rhythm etc until they were in place) also develops the elastic strength-endurance of the legs and body which then prepares for the more vigorous phase of hill (springy) running which also then supports the fine speed phase.

If things are initially moving slowly and we want them to eventually be moving very quickly, the buildup wants to be progressive I think. AT isn’t that quick but time needs to be spent there for the long term adaptions to enter. The final 100m of that championship 800m might be at 93% of your max speed. How to get from one to the other without physical breakdown and with maximum endurance still in the system is the question I think I would like an answer to.

As for the race pace stuff well I’m still learning specifics for sure. There seems to be two kinds so far - the first is maintaining race pace or a slightly faster pace - into depletion. An example is 5x300m off 4mins done in about 40sec for a 150 runner. (I’m referring to someone specific so I’m sure this may vary for others). This is 13.5 per 100m which is a couple of seconds faster than his level. (it may be more reflective of his 800m time if his endurance was up to a similar level as his speed endurance).

- the second is more for rhythm purposes. Spend time at the right rhythm and it will become easier to be there I find. Keep the heavy loading out or make it more aerobic than anaerobic and a higher volume can be achieved. An example is a sequence of sessions moving from say 100m race-pace – 600m in 2/3 race pace – 100m race pace, eventually through to say 100m 2/3 race pace – 600m race pace – 100m 2/3 once again. (ta JR)

I think all stages need to be covered at their appropriate time in the buildup.

sprinter800 wrote:

.........The 22 mile runs were for depletion of glycogen stores specifically so therefore were run above AT.......... . The final 100m of that championship 800m might be at 93% of your max speed......

Any more BS you wanna post sprinter800?

you want to be specific loser!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah while i'm on a rant at your ranting, where was it mentioned i don't like to keep speed during the base development period. Next - So your info says 80mpw for Borza and mine shows a fluctuation at peak around 100kmpw (but peaking at about 120) Same same. Thirdly - All knowledge is borrowed in some form or another. The borrowed that doesn't work for me is that which is exclusively another persons ie plagiarism. Some element of your self has to be in it's written expression if you are passing it off as your own. Fourthly - Cram did do half a year base development of long running. Check out fig 3 on page 10 of the British Milers Club new, volume 3, issue 15, Spring 2003. Theres a whole article on Cram around it as well. As i glanced through it i was reminded of the fact that this was even more pronounced during his junior or developmental years. Finally i will keep to assertion that El Gerrouj's coach was Lydiard influenced more than any other source excpet for Morrocan Distance Training. We were lucky enough to have Said Aouita as out National Distance coach for a couple of years and their way is really tough with many many intervals. One of the main reasons he didn't last is because the influence of Lydiard is quite strong throughout Australia.

Finally ... i came across Lydiard recently. I was trained under an Ukraine coach who emigrated to Australia in the late 1970s because he and his wife didn't want their children growing up in a place which gave limited human rights. They had read forbidden Western philosophy and spoken with enough Western coaches to want to live in a society with more freedom. So in essence i am Soviet periodisation trained initially.

It's like being a Christian from birth yet liking parts of buddhism better. I'll always be be a christian but it is being modified.

sprinter800 wrote: It's like being a Christian from birth yet liking parts of buddhism better. I'll always be be a christian but it is being modified.

Brief tanent unrelated to the main topic of the thread... read "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel. The main character is raised a Hindu but gradually stumbles across Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism, and decides for himself that he likes something from each of these different religions. Likes enough that he joins each of them. Not sequentially, but all at the same time. Much to the chagrin of his various spiritual leaders when they meet each other and discover his secret "four-timing" later in the book.

Anyway, this creative thinking young man decided that religion, for him, wasn't an "either-or" sort of situation.

Wait - I think that IS relevant to the central theme of this thread.

OK, back to talking about specificity. :-)

sorry - raised Buddhist/Hindu, stumbles across Hinduism/Buddhism.... not that it matters

...damn... meaning I don't recall which one he was raised, but he eventually belonged to four

OK I'll shut up now

That link is a dead end.

And how can someone register YOUR name? I don't get it. Once it's registered, no one else can claim it. Right?

I think this is fairly common knowledge. Is it not?

Pete - if it's not an either/or situation then what is it?

I read that book - one of my all time fave's. I think he began as a Hindu but ???

Did you think the animals in the boat were animals or representations for something else?

Kuoy you are as angry as i get sometimes. I don't think the altitude and genetic thing is all that clear. The IAAF sent a team of four scientists to do all sorts of physiological tests even up to the level of muscle biopsies and found no significant difference to other populations. Not sure how true it is but my encyclopedic friend tells me so.

Assuming so arguments sake even if its not true, the other side of the nature/nurture debate is environment. The altitude? The diet? The generally active and relaxed lifestyle? A psychological attunement to physical persistance more akin to native populations that long-term developed ones (i think we do well at intellectual persistence)? A physical-cultural advantage of having less automation especially with cars/motor bikes so foot power is more common? An historical cultural advantage in their recent past, where the ancestors were hunter/gatherers and moving around a lot, for a long time, was regular. Umm I'm out. All of the above?

this communication thing is tricky

thanks Pete i'm pete too

sprinter800 wrote:(1) Pete - if it's not an either/or situation then what is it?

(2) Did you think the animals in the boat were animals or representations for something else?

(1) My book reference was about religion, but I guess I'm implying that distance training philosophies need not be "either/or" but can (should) embrace ideas that come from a variety of sources.

(2) That book was fiction, you realize that right? ;-) The reader gets to choose to believe either that the talking tiger was real (along with all of the other crazy things), or that they were what Pi's mind invented to explain unexplainable things that happened to him during the journey (or were inflicted on him by other, less-savory, survivors). I think the story is his attempt to explain his understanding of the meaning of religion and religious belief (you can draw the parallel that we invented stories about "tigers" and such to explain that which we didn't understand - presto: religion). My impression is that he's not a religious person. But I may have misread the book. Wasn't intending to offend anybody - just giving my take on what the book "means."

sorry for the sidebar folks

Pete wrote:...I guess I'm implying that distance training philosophies need not be "either/or" but can (should) embrace ideas that come from a variety of sources.

Pete wrote:

.. and by extension, when we say someone was influenced by Lydiard, there's no reason to not also be able to say (if it's true) that he was also influenced by the Portuguese school and Peter Coe, as a random illustrative (if perhaps odd) example.

This is true, but the problem is: if the person was influenced by Lydiard AT ALL, the "Lydiarites" will say this person's success was mostly due to Arthur, ingoring the other very important, if not more important, training influences. story. They get carried with that. For them , it's all about Lydiard, all the time.