Except in cycling, where virtually everyone was doping, nothing ever came out like that with the exception of Armstrong, and that ultimately based on a DOJ investigation. Cycling was also much more high profile.
-
30
-
#442
This post was removed.
-
Far too many people in this thread have never even seen a drug test take place much less been in a testing pool.
There is an unbelievable lack of understanding of how doping works.
Australia is no more difficult to dope than any other country in the world. The strict testing so many people seem to reference is a joke in reality. I’ve lived with 3 people in the testing pool in Australia and it’s hardly what I would call strict. At most 1 out of competition test a quarter, keep your whereabouts up to date and time your dosing and there’s zero chance of being caught.Being in Australia is no defence of doping
150 -
[in reply to somebody asking a few pages back how you dodge getting tested]
I once met an athlete who was living and training in NZ in an attempt to avoid Australian Sports Anti Doping Authority (ASADA). He planned to compete for Australia.
Leaving aside the issue of national borders, with bad faith manipulation of the whereabouts system you can make the 'cost' of testing you high. E.g. you give your location as a cabin in the mountains to make the testers go there.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.51 -
note maker wrote:
pop_goes_the_weasel wrote:
I'd say it's not possible to drop seven seconds in a 1500 when you're a highly experienced athlete already among the top in the world...unless you've had "help". I hope WADA is paying attention.
You can be clean and improve 7 seconds at this level if she changed her training e.g. increase in mileage by 25 percent but not by more of the same.
Then we would see runners everywhere making huge jumps in performance by such a simple adjustment in their training. But we don't.
101 -
the answer is right in front of your face wrote:
Ruxton Towers XC wrote:
Obviously, "not everyone" since some people are doping. What I meant was that the thousands of us on Letsrun and who I have known over the years running have no clue.
How can we all be so connected to the sport and not have one concrete story of someone we know who doped effectively?
I mean, are all dopers like the best secret keepers every? Maybe. They have good reason to be.
But are their PTs, coaches, former sponsors, massage therapists, friends, ex-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends, disgruntled teammates, and former colleagues ALL 100% complicit in keeping this secret? Wow! That is amazing.
Why are there basically zero people with believable stories to tell about how this "dark web" of doping exists without any of us knowing about it?
this is a great post that explains that there isn't as much doping as people on this forum think
So dopers discuss their doping practices with others around them? Do they discuss their taxes as well? Do we know about that?
44 -
This quoted post has been removed.
Apparently if it isn't your experience it doesn't happen. Spoken like someone who has no awareness of what doping has done to sport.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.31 -
gads wrote:
Far too many people in this thread have never even seen a drug test take place much less been in a testing pool.
There is an unbelievable lack of understanding of how doping works.
Australia is no more difficult to dope than any other country in the world. The strict testing so many people seem to reference is a joke in reality. I’ve lived with 3 people in the testing pool in Australia and it’s hardly what I would call strict. At most 1 out of competition test a quarter, keep your whereabouts up to date and time your dosing and there’s zero chance of being caught.Being in Australia is no defence of doping
You don’t understand. It’s very difficult to dope with white heart that bears the weight of a pure conscience. White pony tails in particular are the bees knees and angle wings.
34 -
gads wrote:
Far too many people in this thread have never even seen a drug test take place much less been in a testing pool.
There is an unbelievable lack of understanding of how doping works.
Australia is no more difficult to dope than any other country in the world. The strict testing so many people seem to reference is a joke in reality. I’ve lived with 3 people in the testing pool in Australia and it’s hardly what I would call strict. At most 1 out of competition test a quarter, keep your whereabouts up to date and time your dosing and there’s zero chance of being caught.Being in Australia is no defence of doping
Yeah I don’t get what people are talking about on that. The testing numbers are low at an average of 2 OOC tests annually. Now the onus will be on the AIU to increase testing of Hull as she went from 6th-7th in the world to 6th-7th all time.
32 -
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
gads wrote:
Far too many people in this thread have never even seen a drug test take place much less been in a testing pool.
There is an unbelievable lack of understanding of how doping works.
Australia is no more difficult to dope than any other country in the world. The strict testing so many people seem to reference is a joke in reality. I’ve lived with 3 people in the testing pool in Australia and it’s hardly what I would call strict. At most 1 out of competition test a quarter, keep your whereabouts up to date and time your dosing and there’s zero chance of being caught.Being in Australia is no defence of doping
Yeah I don’t get what people are talking about on that. The testing numbers are low at an average of 2 OOC tests annually. Now the onus will be on the AIU to increase testing of Hull as she went from 6th-7th in the world to 6th-7th all time.
And they 100% will increase testing on her now. They can see the statistical trends just like the rest of us.
40 -
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
Clean Sport Advocate wrote:
All those groups you listed are getting faster across the board because of shoe tech, better training, fast tracks, wave lights, etc.
Those factors cannot explain how Jessica Hull, who has already been able to enjoy the benefits of modern advances for the past several years, suddenly went from an also-ran to running right behind Faith Kipyegon.
So I said I still am giving the BOTD here - but it's really by a thread and these are the primary reasons why.
To be honest, if Hull has actually been a less accomplished/relevant athlete over this distance in the last 2-3 season it might incredibly be more convincing. Someone bought up Ruth Wysocki earlier and how she busted out a huge PR in the 1984 trials to beat Slaney. But she basically never ran the 1500m but was elite over 800m for many years so it's not a huge stretch to say she was just super untapped over the distance. Maybe if the 3000/5000 had been her premier events with the occasional foray into the 1500m then it's more palatable.
But that's not the case here. Hull is a locked in DL level athlete and has been now for at least 2 seasons. She's run the 1500m/mile in Monaco the last 2 years, same with Brussels - these are fast venues (no less "fast" than the Stade Sébastien Charléty) with wavelight and with respect to maybe the fastest of them all, Monaco, and "pacemaking", she has had Kipyegon there running the same perfect splits as a few days ago in Paris.
People need to stop it with the spikes. Trust me, the Zoom Vic spikes she wore are fundamentally no different to the ones of the previous two seasons. Some nice updates to the geometry of the foam which is purely visual and the zoom bags are the same. You want to know the biggest difference? They have gone from 6 spike pins to 4 (which I love btw you don't even need them) which probably saves them 10-12g in receptacle/spike weight.
So really we are left with training/focus/attitude. As you pointed out, does this explain how we go from front end of the pack, through to breaking away from the pack right behind the WR holder and best female MD runner ever? Does training work like this? Was she training so sub-optimally the last 2-3 seasons (despite being a 3.57 runner which is still very very good) and whatever the change was just flipped a switch and opened the floodgates? That's what we really have to believe here. If you choose to of course....
This is a top post. She's been wearing the so-called "super-spikes" for 5 years, she's been racing at a high level the entire time, she's made multiple world finals, and she showed excellent improvement at NOP and UAC. She's had so many "perfect" races that resulted in a 3:57-3:59 or 4:15-4:18 time. Despite that, she just dropped 7 seconds in a single year to catapult herself into a position as an all-time great, and she did it in a year where she moved away from the scrutiny of Oregon and a pro group. I just can't give that the benefit of the doubt without some serious mental gymnastics.
132 -
My best 1500 was 3:47.4. My 2nd best ever was 3:51.0. I never doped.
410 -
Flower Boy wrote:
My best 1500 was 3:47.4. My 2nd best ever was 3:51.0. I never doped.
At 3:47 you obviously didn't.
78 -
my two pennies wrote:
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
So I said I still am giving the BOTD here - but it's really by a thread and these are the primary reasons why.
To be honest, if Hull has actually been a less accomplished/relevant athlete over this distance in the last 2-3 season it might incredibly be more convincing. Someone bought up Ruth Wysocki earlier and how she busted out a huge PR in the 1984 trials to beat Slaney. But she basically never ran the 1500m but was elite over 800m for many years so it's not a huge stretch to say she was just super untapped over the distance. Maybe if the 3000/5000 had been her premier events with the occasional foray into the 1500m then it's more palatable.
But that's not the case here. Hull is a locked in DL level athlete and has been now for at least 2 seasons. She's run the 1500m/mile in Monaco the last 2 years, same with Brussels - these are fast venues (no less "fast" than the Stade Sébastien Charléty) with wavelight and with respect to maybe the fastest of them all, Monaco, and "pacemaking", she has had Kipyegon there running the same perfect splits as a few days ago in Paris.
People need to stop it with the spikes. Trust me, the Zoom Vic spikes she wore are fundamentally no different to the ones of the previous two seasons. Some nice updates to the geometry of the foam which is purely visual and the zoom bags are the same. You want to know the biggest difference? They have gone from 6 spike pins to 4 (which I love btw you don't even need them) which probably saves them 10-12g in receptacle/spike weight.
So really we are left with training/focus/attitude. As you pointed out, does this explain how we go from front end of the pack, through to breaking away from the pack right behind the WR holder and best female MD runner ever? Does training work like this? Was she training so sub-optimally the last 2-3 seasons (despite being a 3.57 runner which is still very very good) and whatever the change was just flipped a switch and opened the floodgates? That's what we really have to believe here. If you choose to of course....
This is a top post. She's been wearing the so-called "super-spikes" for 5 years, she's been racing at a high level the entire time, she's made multiple world finals, and she showed excellent improvement at NOP and UAC. She's had so many "perfect" races that resulted in a 3:57-3:59 or 4:15-4:18 time. Despite that, she just dropped 7 seconds in a single year to catapult herself into a position as an all-time great, and she did it in a year where she moved away from the scrutiny of Oregon and a pro group. I just can't give that the benefit of the doubt without some serious mental gymnastics.
This is rather convincing. Where has she been training the last year?
30 -
I mean seven seconds? If she was running against her 2023 self she would be so far back she wouldn't even be visible on the same camera.
I hope they take as much blood as they need to run as many tests as possible.
There's no way she never used bicarbonate before and is suddenly using it right?
It is the closest thing to doping that IAAF/WADA allows I guess that could explain IF she never used it before
32 -
I don't think it is a coincidence that this is in the context of a massive testing window in the immediate lead up to the most lucrative T&F event, the Olympics.
01 -
enquiring minds wrote:
I mean seven seconds? If she was running against her 2023 self she would be so far back she wouldn't even be visible on the same camera.
I hope they take as much blood as they need to run as many tests as possible.
There's no way she never used bicarbonate before and is suddenly using it right?
It is the closest thing to doping that IAAF/WADA allows I guess that could explain IF she never used it before
A form of bicarbonate has existed for awhile, but I wouldn't say it's become widespread until about the last 18 months or so. Jonathan Gault's piece on it was interesting with the anecdotes from the runners; however, I would be curious to see the actual raw data of using the bicarbonate hydrogel vs. not using it in a max effort. Do blood lactate levels change? Is vO2max different? Body temperature? Pain tolerance?
It could be that this hydrogel really works, and runners are certainly not opposed to a LEGAL performance enhancer and would be foolish not to use it if it really works.
33 -
Armstronglivs wrote:
note maker wrote:
You can be clean and improve 7 seconds at this level if she changed her training e.g. increase in mileage by 25 percent but not by more of the same.
Then we would see runners everywhere making huge jumps in performance by such a simple adjustment in their training. But we don't.
This site is based on a 30:00 26 year old running a 28:00 2 years later. how many highly trained 27 year olds do you know who drop 90s off their 10k or in a year?
34 -
Imimpresssed wrote:
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
"Compared to what she experiences in average in other races"? What exactly do you mean here? What other races? I just rewatched this years Pre with her big (at the time) 3.55.97 PR from there. Here are the splits I got: I took the 1st 100m and then each 200m split from 1400m to the finish.
15.0 > 31.6 > 31.5 > 31.8 > 31.6 > 31.9 > 31.0 > 31.5
Visually watching the race the first 300m could definitely have been more efficient but by the time she hits 400m she is right behind ESP and that is where she stays running almost dead even splits (see above) until she passes her with 220m of the race remaining. In general that is phenomenally well paced and optimal way to race. She's on the rail/shoulder of ESP drafting for what, 900m of the race?
Here is the race - maybe you show us where the egregious slowing, surging, kicking happens? Her splits would suggest otherwise - even the final 200m is more a function of her holding her pace vs increasing it (it's the optic created by ESP slowing down) - in fact she even runs her final 200 slightly slower than the penultimate one.
What is a perfectly paced, optimally run race worth? Depends what you are comparing it to doesn't it.
Didn’t say there was egregious surging. You analyzed it more than me, so I’ll take your word for it. Many times I see people look at times without any consideration for distance run, wind, weather, pacing, drafting- and it can all add up to make a great run even faster. Sounds like you took that into consideration.
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying because you are right - all these things clearly matter.
But I think this is a clear component with respect to the "staggering" nature of this performance - that it's not like Hull has been some middling "journeywoman" running in poorly paced, lower talent World Challenger meets who finally got her chance in the big time and just burst into prominence.
She has had the privilege of running in the worlds best venues, against the worlds best athletes with the worlds best conditions now for at least 24 months.
I guess the logic is for people struggling with the legitimacy of this is given all of these realities, it might have been more plausible to have seen a handful of races where maybe she challenged and stuck with a Kipyegon, Hassan, Tsegay etc for an extended part of the race and had maybe even run a few times in the 3.53/54's. But the reality is she's been a strong, if unspectacular main pack asset in these fields that only just broke 3.56 this season in what was then a breakthrough, done in near perfect conditions and now we see this 5 second+ explosion to very rare air where we also know a number of suspect characters (Yunxia and Dibaba specifically) are also breathing.
61 -
Yyyyyyyyyyyy wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Then we would see runners everywhere making huge jumps in performance by such a simple adjustment in their training. But we don't.
This site is based on a 30:00 26 year old running a 28:00 2 years later. how many highly trained 27 year olds do you know who drop 90s off their 10k or in a year?
Dumbstrong knows nothing about training and performance.
12
What People Are Talking About On LetsRun