Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

“In 2021 we kept reiterating that Ukraine was going to join [NATO]. We kept saying that, over and over again,” Walt noted. To this, US ambassador McFaul replied, “Did you believe that?” He then asserted “our [US] diplomats were lying when offering Ukraine NATO membership to Ukraine,” adding “Yes! Yes! That’s the real word!”

The ambassador that served in office from 2012 to 2014 claimed that diplomats in Washington have been “lying all the time” about NATO membership of Ukraine, dismissing the threat to Russian security, and sarcastically adding “yet the Russians should trust them.” Walt then questioned the US ambassador’s controversial remark, asking whether it was “a common practice” for diplomats like McFaul in Washington to lie or make casual statements. “So our diplomats are lying?” Walt asked McFaul. “That’s the real world,” the latter reiterated.

republicworld.com

Former US ambassador to Russia claims Washington 'was lying to Ukraine about NATO bid'

Republic World

McFaul’s remarks came as NATO's Stoltenberg claimed that Alliance was “confident that we will come to a quick decision" to welcome Finland, Sweden.

Link:www.republicworld.com/world-news/russi...

^^^^

DanM dislikes his own country.

Where did this small brand of Americans come from? It's weird. They were once, in recent memory, all obnoxious, flag waving jerks just a decade ago. It made sense, or at least was tolerable. Now they seem to believe the words of Timothy McVeigh.

Who and what led them in such an extreme direction? We can't blame Trump for these creepy weirdos. I think it's people like DanM's childish mentality, and there will always be people like him and Cramine who think they need to be college freshmen in perpetuity.

Just an opinion. Thoughts?

What's weird is its pretty much the same people who are the anti vax cheerleaders.

You can go to a thread and know Racist Carmine,Dan,Steve,Wigins etc are going to be batting for 1 side,and the sane people are going to be on the other side.

Sometimes it's no wonder America is so torn when you have so many people hating the country they were brought up in.

They also hate truth and love conspiracy theories and propaganda.

Remember, they were brainwashed to believe rUsSiA bAd! since 2016. It’s been one of the most impressive manufacturing of consent for war examples in history. Progressives whole-heartedly supporting the objectives of the military industrial complex.

What’s the first casualty of any war, though? Yes, the truth.

Imagine being so ignorant that you support $40,000,000,000 for the Weapons industry to keep killing Russians and Ukrainians and thinking that makes you patriotic.

The dumbing down of America.

Imagine screaming for Russian blood and calling others racist

Almost as bad as calling people racist and, when called upon to show any proof of your claim, you cannot answer

I showed you your racist posts,it is in reply to the one where you showed the quote that was in the transcript.

Racist

See wut I mean

Calls me racist all the time, cannot provide one example.

Yes I did.

Remember you said you'd shown me where the quote was,so go back and find my reply to this post of yours and you will see your racist posts.

A change.

From refusing to show an example of my racism due to a bogus excuse, to claiming you already did -- yet again providing a single example.

What a pathetic little lightweight you are.

Just go back to the post you claim you posted.

Or are you admitting you lied yet again and didn't actually post the quote from the transcript?

Racist liar.

You're such a dumb,uneducated simpleton it's so easy to catch you out on your lies.

Racist loser.

Not $40B for the weapons industry. Imagine being so ignorant that you can't even learn the basics of what you're ranting about.

"Four logical fallacies; False Dilemma, Appeal to Ethos, Non Sequitur, and Ad Hominem. Attack facts and arguments, not people."

I'm sure your penchant for pointing out logical fallacies made you very popular on the debate team in high school. Now it you makes you look like another pro-Putin apologist. Your "argument" is that the people of Crimea voted to rejoin Russia in the 2014 referendum. My point is that any vote held after Russia invaded and many pro-Ukrainian citizens left is a sham, and there is copious evidence for election fraud that favored Russia. The very fact that 97% of the vote was pro-Russia, when decades of polling before Russia invaded suggested a nearly 50-50 split between joining Russia and remaining part of Ukraine suggests the entire referendum was fraudulent. Of course, there shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place, as Russia had no just cause (jus ad bellum) to invade Crimea in the first place.

Let's look more carefully at the principles of jus ad bellum as they apply to Russia's invasion of Crimea:
* Proper authority and public declaration - Russia never publicly declared war in their invasion of Ukraine.
* Just cause - Wars cannot be fought simply to annex property, but should be aimed at achieving a just peace. Russia's sole intention was a land grab and to install a pro-Russian government after the Crimean parliament voted to recognize the new Ukrainian government after Yanukovych fled.
* Probability of success - Okay, Russia did have a likely chance of succeeding.
* Last resort - Since Russia didn't even try other options, this was clearly not a last resort.

So, Russia's entire invasion of Crimea was a crime against Ukraine and any subsequent referendum is immaterial. As a result Crimea's status as a Russian republic is recognized by less than 20 countries.

"This ignores over 200 years of cultural Russian identity in Crimea ("they couldn't possibly have wanted this") and dismisses an undeniably-positive plebiscite on grounds of self-interest (“the outcome didn’t favour us) and bureaucracy ("didn’t go through proper channels so it doesn't count!")"

And you ignore the hundreds of years of Crimean Tater history that preceded that, as well as the last 50+ years where Crimea was part of Ukraine. Crimea didn't become part of Russia until Russia violated the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca and annexed the Crimean Khanate in 1783 and then, following WWII, Soviet forces deported and exiled (or just straight-up murdered) ALL Crimean Taters from Crimea. Is that the Russian identity in Crimea that you're referring to? One of genocide and forced deportation? Here's a thought - how about all the Russian invaders leave Crimea, the indigenous Crimean Taters are invited back, and then hold a referendum on whether they want to be part of Russia. More broadly, you and Putin ignore the Ukrainian identity that dates back more than a thousand years to the Kyivan Rus, who predate the founding of Moscow.

"The validity of a vote 8 years ago in Crimea does not determine whether war crimes exist now in Ukraine."

No, but your disregard for Russia's illegal invasion of Crimea and support for the subsequent sham referendum calls into question your impartiality and speaks to your own hypocrisy.

"There are things we should not usually vote on – like removing basic rights. This is not to say there are things that can be voted on. Self-determination is commonly one of those things."

Successful independence referendums that are recognized by both parties are actually quite rare - the last being South Sudan voting for independence from Sudan in 2011. If we're defaulting to referendums, then do you believe the 1991 Soviet Union referendum / Ukraine sovereignty referendum where more than 80% of respondents said they wanted independence from Russia?

"Destruction and death are something to be ''glad'' about and are ''entertainment''?"

Appeal to pathos, but I'll respond anyway. Because of Russia's actions, Ukrainian sovereignty is going to require the death of many Russian troops. You are welcome to believe that the lives are Russian troops are "worth more" than Ukrainian sovereignty. I personally believe that Ukrainian sovereignty is "worth more" than the lives of the Russian troops that are trying to invade. Ukraine wins when Russia realizes their position is unsustainable, whether through loss of people, equipment, and/or morale. So, yes I am "glad" when Ukraine does things that further its goal of removing Russian invaders, even if it means the death of (many) Russian troops. Here's an imperfect analogy: I cheer (i.e., am "glad") when Demario Davis sacks Tom Brady and gives him a concussion. Not because I have anything against Tom Brady personally or the Buccaneers as an organization, but because it helps the side I support (the New Orleans Saints) in their goal of winning.

"BTW, I am bolding phrases were the response was made personal by singling me out."

Congratulations.

"When did advocating responsible spending become anti-democratic?"

When you failed to make any argument that spending $40B to preserve the sovereignty of Ukraine was irresponsible spending? You want people to attack your facts, so please provide some. How much should the US spend defending Ukraine's sovereignty? How much should the US spend on oversight?

"Why are we tossing billions like Mardi Gras beads?"

"Because it's the right thing to do. For somebody that spends all their time riding around on their moral high horse, you seem to have a tenuous grasp of right and wrong."

"Moral appeal followed by a personal attack."

Ok. Let's try this. Fallacy of Hyperbole.

"Would be relevant if it had been stated Zelenskyy was forced to fight."

Russia has sent multiple teams with the specific goal of killing or kidnapping Zelenskyy and his family. He has remained in Kyiv throughout the duration of the Russian invasion. While he did have the choice of leaving and running his government while in exile, the consequences would likely be catastrophic for Ukraine. So, he is de facto forced to stay and fight.

"Those forced are the millions of Ukraine men forbidden from fleeing the country with their families, and the million or so being conscripted into mandatory wartime service."

Anecdotally, I know more men over age 60 that choose to stay in Ukraine than men between 18 and 60 that wanted to leave and were not allowed. Now, let's take a closer look at conscription in Ukraine (and for fun we'll compare with Russia).
Ukrainian law requires 12 - 18 months of military service. This is a relic from Soviet rule (when men were required to serve for 3 years), and multiple attempts have been made to abolish it. In fact, it was abolished briefly in 2013, before Russia's invasion of Crimea brought it back. It was slated to be abolished in 2024, but that has been pushed back, again due to a Russian invasion. There are four waves in the general mobilization announced by Zelenskyy. So, far only two of those waves have been enlisted - all soldiers with combat experience. Conscription is also required in Russia, where men are required to enlist for 12 months. As we learned in the early days of Russia's invasion, these conscripts can be sent to the frontline after being told they were on a training exercise. There is talk of a general mobilization in Russia as well, that would see even more civilians pressed into military service. You have not provided any evidence that there were millions of men that wanted to leave Ukraine and were unable. Nor did you provide any evidence that millions of men were conscripted into service against their will.

"One can be concerned about facts, hypocrisy, war crimes, and responsible spending at the same time. These are not exclusive."

You have still not defined responsible spending, or do you just mean "spending on things I support"?

"Reports are of both Russians and Ukrainians being killed for cell phones. In some disturbing cases, Ukrainians used cell phones from Russian soldiers to call the captured or fallen soldier’s family to taunt them or send gruesome pictures."

Killing Russian soldiers who are in possession of cell phones is different from killing Russian soldiers for their cell phones. And, we're supposed to be morally outraged that little Ivan's family learns that he died in Ukraine while killing and raping civilians, not defending Russia from Nazis? I'm going to save my moral outrage for the real victims here (i.e., not Ivan or his family).

"Not every possible thing the US can do is worthwhile. Actions and consequences should always be considered, understood, and balanced."

Defending Ukraine is worthwhile and none of your pro-Putin rhetoric is going to change anyone's mind.

I also noticed you conveniently ignored many of the facts I provided that rebutted your "arguments".

More

You're right. Jimmy Bore is the epitome of the dumbing down of America. Clueless morons who blindly follow whatever Jimmy says, without realizing that he couldn't find Russia on map, let alone Ukraine.

If I want to read US propaganda, I will buy a newspaper