Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

Caroline NOThe irony and humour is that what left to those who are mind tyrannised. Corrosive humour that’s funny positive way to do a serious critic. When I read Renato’s training posts the first idea that comes to my mind is that is so similar to Lydiard. Often i ask myself. Does he copy his training from Lydiard ?

That´s obvious. I knew it since the start. Walker training is similar to that of El Guerrouj. But thanks to remind me. First of all Walker is a true perfect example of "The" Lydiard disciple. Second we all know that El Guerrouj coach is a Lydiard coach. When Ie read Kada coach articles or when I hear Kada conferences, I realise that’s not a product of the Morocco training system, but Lydiard influence. How could both trains be different ? No way. They both run you see...With the exception of weight training that Guerrouj did – but that’s just a irrelevant detail – and the famous Lydiard way to lace the shoes – something that undeniable contributes to high up the aerobic condition - both trains are equal either.

Don´t say this. Impossible. No way. That’s a your mistake of course. You will deceive those young 800m american young runner they try hard on every weekend for 22 miles and they think they have the job done.

How Peter Snell trained for 1.44.3 on grass in 1962

by Dr Keith Livingstone

Long Runs, Hill Circuits, very varied track work, morning runs.

Interestingly, in about August1961, Peter Snell returned from a successful European track tour exhausted from the frenetic racing and traveling, and didn’t feel inspired to re-commence a buildup till September 17th. He established a twice a day routine of running to and from his work, and by October 21st won an exhibition mile race in 4.13, in the midst of accumulating the first 100 mile week of that buildup. By November he was able to cover the 22 mile Waiatarua circuit confidently, covering 4 miles to Lydiard’s home before running the full course in 2 hours 11, his best since before his Rome Olympic 800m triumph.

The following day he started two weeks of hill circuit training, with Wednesdays given over to club races, presumably over sprint and middle distances. After the first week of circuits, he ran a picnic meeting mile in 4.14. He continued his long Sunday runs, as well as morning runs of 10 miles during the week. At the end of his second week of hill circuit training he competed in the Owairaka marathon. He stayed with the leaders in a top field, being 4th at 20 miles. Half a mile later he was reduced to a walk, and at 24 miles he had to sit down.

He dredged himself to a very tired finish in 2 hours 41. Later that day he played in a social cricket match, and when he batted he “lasted about three balls before being clean bowled…..my vision was obscured… there was no coordination at all”. Obviously, Snell had managed to totally deplete his glycogen reserves.

He recovered all week, running another Waiatarua circuit the next weekend half an hour slower than usual, then the next Monday started track work with a 4.10 picnic meeting mile and last 440 yards of 58.6 seconds. Thereafter followed a variety of track work on several afternoons a week, with 10-mile morning runs every day, and the weekly long run.

He recorded a 9.18 two mile in his first week of track training, followed soon after by a ¾ mile in 3.04.5, and for the next few weeks, in training or at picnic race meetings, a number of hard time trial efforts over distances between 440 yards and three miles.

On Christmas Day he ran a 1.52/ 4.15 half mile/mile double. Four days later he ran ten half-mile efforts in 2.10 average, with half mile recovery jogs. All the while the 10 mile morning runs and long Sunday runs continued. In the next few weeks he ran sessions including a 9.12 two mile the day before 10 x 440 yards in an average of 59.8 seconds, a half mile in 1.51, and a windy three miles in 14.23 (equivalent to about 14.50 for 5000m), a few days before a 440 yards in 50 seconds.

He then started to ease up the pressure for a few days, before winning an international race series 880 yards in 1.48.2, passing through 800m in 1.47.7. Although due to run another international half mile the next Wednesday, he felt strong enough to run his usual 22 miles on the Sunday*. The next day he ran half an hour in the morning, and 8 x 150 yards, working up to sprint speed in the closing stages of each.

(*Barry Magee – training partner and Olympic Marathon bronze medallist - says that Snell’s long runs during the business end of his track season were slow and restorative, about a minute a mile slower than his best aerobic speeds achieved in his build up)

On the Wednesday he ran 880 yards in 1.47.1, passing through 800m in 1.46.3, tying his Olympic record time. The 10-mile morning runs continued.

A week later on the 27th January 1962 , he ran a world mile record of 3.54.4 with a last 440 yards in 54.8s.

The next week, on the 3rd of February, he ran a world record 1.44.3 for 800m on grass, enroute to 1.45.1 for 880 yards.

8 months later he won the 880 yard/mile double in the Commonwealth Games.

30 months later he did the 800m/1500m double in the Olympics.

The above is an excerpt from Dr Keith Livingstone's book

Healthy Intelligent Training

Hit your racing goals. Enjoy your training. Reach your potential.

Keith was a leading Hunter athlete in the 1980s

About interval training. 3 ways/directions to the RESISTANCE aquire, One is to reduce the inteval recover – that acts in the workout DENSITY. Two is to run the same workout faster – that acts in the FASTER/INTENSITY direction. Three is to run more interval number AND/do longer sets (or both). That acts by the use of VOLUME.

Resuming you have 2 main directions to search for enhance FAST and/or EXTENSE. All this you know.Different coaches they use diferent solutions. If the training individualisation it exists, that´s normal that diferent runners they use diferent workouts. Cram and Morcrooft both training that have strong points of afinnity. But they did diferent history training backgrounds, diferent event profiles. If you are out of the coach-runner relationship that´s not correct to judge or decide what´s best. Ther´s no a universal training law that may answer your questions for every situation.

I often wonder if, following that train, or perhaps deviating from it entirely, it comes down to WHAT THE ATHLETE ENJOYS. Perhaps Moorcroft detested short recovery / slower runs. Maybe the long recovery / fast stuff invigorated and thrilled him. And that's why he did it so often and so well. Even coaching choices come down to what athletes DESIRE, right? Athletes choose coaches.

Skuj wrote:

I often wonder if, following that train, or perhaps deviating from it entirely, it comes down to WHAT THE ATHLETE ENJOYS. Perhaps Moorcroft detested short recovery / slower runs. Maybe the long recovery / fast stuff invigorated and thrilled him. And that's why he did it so often and so well. Even coaching choices come down to what athletes DESIRE, right? Athletes choose coaches.

That is an excellent question. How often do so many of us change our training routines, our running routes and our emphasis even after a successful racing season just because we are somewhat bored or stale? Enthusiasm makes for better workouts and doing what we like makes us more enthusiastic.

John Anderson was Moorcroft's long-time coach, and as such he was one who believed in having fast, hard repetitions included for much if not all of the year. Examples were 1ks at between 1500m and 3k pace with long recoveries (about 6.5 minutes). Another example might be a handful of 600s at 1500m pace with 3-4 minute recoveries.

It is also true the Moorcroft, under Anderson's methods, used short recovery fartleks. For example, Dave might righ 10-13 miles with many 200s at about 32-35 seconds with just 30 seconds of easier running between pickups.

In Moorcroft's case, though it is probably fair to summarize his training like this:

mileage was about 90 per week during his best during the winter and spring and dipped to 70-80 in the summer when he was doing his most important races;

he raced very often, throughout the year - club and relay races were a common part of his buildup, much like many of the GB runners of his time;

he ran hard intervals but used long recoveries;

he used fartleks with slower speed pickups but short recoveries;

he had a foundation as a miler before moving up to the 3k and 5k;

he ran his fastest times over the mile and 1500m when he elevated his mileage and prepared for 3k-5k races;

he had a long career with some good successes in European Championships and was fairly strong in the Commonwealth Games, too.

He was a believer in his coach, John Anderson and was loyal to his coach's methods.

This is a very good discussion. Thanks IQ100 and I agree with your analysis. I also agree that we can't know precisely these athletes, their training history or even whether the reported training was followed by them. It would be very good to see actual diaries from when they were young to champions. Not to copy, of course, but to analyse. Though both were similar types of runner - resistant - they were not identical of course. Both ran from a very young age however Dave Moorcroft was a late bloomer, so to speak (Cram is reported to have ran 4.31 at 11 years of age - source GBATHLETICS.com).

It is only one element of training of course, and it may not be of interest to all, but clearly if it is correct that both athletes used a session that was in essence 3k pace with long tests/repetitions (Cram 800, Moorcroft 1000) but with very different recovery then the physiological benefits are different. In Moorcroft's training there is much more recovery between reps and little to see of the 'speed endurance' training of Cram. John Anderson himself admitted that from early on he trained David more akin to a 5000 runner so maybe the emphasis on aerobic power sessions rather than fast short, short recovery sessions. Nevertheless Moorcroft ran 3.49 in the year he ran 13minutes for 5000 and I think pb in 800 that year.

i feel you guys are all running around in circles. You are trying to decide how much salt and spices to add to the meal when you haven't even got any meat in it.

Of course Mr Canovo, Skuj and a number of others are observers and thinkers, most of you are just thinkers - its not enough!

have i killed this thread? Is no-one willing to agree or disagree with my previous post?

sprinter800 wrote:

have i killed this thread? Is no-one willing to agree or disagree with my previous post?

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Perhaps you'd like to provide the answers - the "meat" you refer to so that nobody runs round in "circles," as you put it.

sprinter800 wrote:

have i killed this thread? Is no-one willing to agree or disagree with my previous post?

ok, I'll bite: please don't ever put Skuj and "Mr canovo" in the same league ever again.

Happy ??

I want to hear more from "private investigator," I like his style.

some of the posters may be vegetarians and may have been upset by your reference to meat. I am a meat man myself though I do like fish. I can catch fish however I am happy to to accept fish caught by others.

hahaha ok i go

The meat is the base aerobic development, what else would the meat be for distance running?

hahaha ok i go

The meat is the base aerobic development, what else would the meat be for distance running?

Oh and by the way the breadth and fairness of thinking Skuj has is similar to that of Mr Canovo, just maybe some years short in development. But not having this breadth nor this fairness you wouldn't be able to perceive it.

Does anyone know of another message board where people generally are less myopic?

May be some of you are going around in circles, and add nothing to the debate.But what Tinman does ? He posts with poor resume from the material he did read somewhere somehow, and adds nothing to the discussion.I did my private investigation and my private search and I found this article.

(page 6 - Dave Moorcroft - analysis of a champion)

http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/1999spring.pdf

Don’t compromise me Jerry, i’m not the coach, i’m just the piano player. Some of us are in the story, some of us are story tellers.

sprinter800 wrote:

i feel you guys are all running around in circles. You are trying to decide how much salt and spices to add to the meal when you haven't even got any meat in it.

Of course Mr Canovo, Skuj and a number of others are observers and thinkers, most of you are just thinkers - its not enough!

Perhaps you don´t know that "Mr Canovo" coaches some of the best runners in the world, so he has a lot more meat in his kitchen than you will ever have!

um i actually excluded Mr Canovo from my comment!!!

I've been unfair and i agree with the PI. Some are borrowing knowledge from other people and using it as their own, whereas others are being original, are being individuals. Thinking out the facts on their own and coming to personal conclusions.

I don't know why i can't get someone who has thought into this longer area to discuss. Cram spent 6 months of the year doing base long running, El Gerrouj was coached by a Lydiard follower, my recent viewing into Rodal and Borzakovsky showed 100km per week peaks in preparation training. Coe was more XC and 3000m as a 16 year old than anything else. All of the Kenyans utilise this deep base of long running, as do the Ethiopians.

Am i just on my own trip here? Skuj lend me your thoughts. Mr Canovo please.

I will disagree to a limited extent. Of course base running is important and is necessary,but,if it was as easy as simply running 100 mi per week for 6 months then there would be many more North American champions.

I posed the question earlier to Renato, but unfortunately he didn't have a chance to respond- how do you explain the 18/19 year old Africans who run 12:59 each year-some run 27:00. Lets not bother with the snide jokes about them being 22 and not 18. The bottom line is that young guys are running these times with only 2-4 years of training that we cannot seem to approach.

Perhaps it is the altitude from birth thing.

One of the senses that I get from reading most of the available materials is that it is the big tempo run they do- sometimes almost daily.

Perhaps we handicap ourselves too much. What coach, if any would say to his 16/17 year olds, "run as hard as you can to stay with the older guys for as long as you can" So, rather than jog 5-10 miles as beginners the Africans are running 2-3 mi at 5:00 pace and then just going further as they strengthen.

One of my theories for North Americans is that 17/18/19 year olds should focus on breaking 8:00 for 3k before moving up any longer.We give too much praise to h.s. boys who can run 15:00, which I think is a very easy time to run for a decent talented kid who runs 70mpw.

Anyway, there are some new thoughts for the rest of you to consider.

another canuck wrote:

Perhaps it is the altitude from birth thing.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this. Being active from a very young age while living at altitude would tend to make someone very anaerobically efficient, I would think. Living and running in an environment with reduced oxygen forces the body to adapt. Then when they drop down closer to sea level, the increased concentrations of oxygen creates a beneficial adjustment in the runner's anaerobic threshold.