Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

In my opinion you have to consider something. A TdF rider and pro is so optimally endurance trained that findings about his high training volume don't really fit the thread (low mileage). I beg to correct myself: aerobic threshold, unless you do a meticulous and systematic check of blood values, varies between 10k race pace and half marathon race pace in runners according to a rule of thumb. That's about 85% of maximum heart rate, roughly speaking (but no more than 90%). A very well trained runner will run close to an hour at aerobic threshold, less good ones can't. If I'm not mistaken, someone who trains low mileage and therefore doesn't favor a marathon or half marathon most of the time because he or she is not optimally trained should do the threshold training in uncomplicated everyday life at about 10k race pace. That sets good training incentives. Anything else would be too slow in that case.

Definitely, KI sometimes does Saturday sessions above LT4, but he's not racing hardly ever at all. So this just kind of replicates the racing, but in a more controlled measure. Whereas for me, I just jog out to my local parkrun and do that as often as I can. Again, it's just the finer details of things overall - but you are right it's worth mentioning. You are gonna mess about up sometimes anyway, it'll happen. For whatever reason. KI is using pace to guide him and the meter to check on the results of the session, presumably to shape the rest of the week depending on the reading. Unless you test every rep or every other rep. That will happen. But I still think most of the time you'll be absolutely fine, which, in general means you are probably getting almost the most you. n still from this. If you go into lactate threshold or over for 3-4 mins at the end of the last 2 reps, does it matter? Probably not too much if it's just the odd mistake here and there. Is it ideal? No, as in my experience you do actually feel it,even for not very long.

As for Froome, well Tean Sky were married to this approach for a while. Wiggins was famous for his sub threshold efforts in his garden shed, hitting specific targets (Tim Kerrison?) that were given to him. He Laos loved TSS and CTL, as a side note. There still needs to be the X factor for the absolute elite, to set them up. When I was cycling and racing for the UK time trial scene, I basically just did all sub threshold to maximise the time I had this was perfect for time trialing. I was and am a horrible road racing. My Anaerobic capacity was shocking and I could probably be beat in terms of power output for a sprint on the trainer, by a lot of random untrained. With Froome, whilst he doesn't need the violent accelerations, he could up the tempo and hold just below his threshold for the long mountains, he does need that range where if he has to follow, he has to follow. Although Geraint Thomas and Wiggins both proved you probably can win the TDF as just an absolute threshold/sub threshold monster in the high mountains, with basically, one pace. 40/20 is the classic cycling session. I have also done 10x1 with float recovery as my X factor session. That's 1 min zone 6 with a minute at low zone 3. Probably the most violet session I've ever done and something that definitely improved my overall package. But I couldn't handle this much even on the bike, which is a ton easier on your body than running.

Thank you. This makes sense to me. I'm interested. How can you be that bad for the short sprints / anareobic do you think if you were threshold monster?

Just because that was the system I trained + I guess my natural inclination towards longer efforts. My best FTP was about 325w at around 60kg. So obviously a really good w/kg for being time crunched. But my 5s power best was like 774w I think. As I said, I bet there are guys reading this with zero cycling training who could absolute smash that out of the ball park. They are just totally different systems. I didn't need that real top end power. A diesel engine was all I needed for what I was training for. Froome needed that + a tiny bit of an X factor ( or so he felt or his coaches did). But as I said, diesels like Wiggins and Geraint have ground their way to winning the TDF.

For running, I'm sure my "speed" is terrible compared to my 5k and up time. But I'm doing almost purely aerobic events so for me training at below threshold to push that up from below makes sense. I can't sprint. I'm sure my 400m is horrific but I would fancy my chances from 4 mins+ length races of being quite strong purely on this training even without that raw speed or the x factor pace.

Just tell it's a mistake by many to presuppose someone who trains low mileage wouldn't be optimally trained to favor a marathon or half marathon.Even to that person 10 k paced thresholds are too fast in most cases.The most effective threshold pace to all runners varies from half marathon pace ( elites) and just a few seconds per mile faster to hobby joggers.

What I agree is your handle signature " Keep it very simple", that`s the way to go.

This was a topic I was just thinking about myself, so glad you asked it! There are a few ways I think about this from a “training system” approach.

If you approach training as wanting to recruit and stimulate the spectrum of your muscle fibers, then you would be leaving some fibers behind if you never ran faster than, say 5km pace. Hill repeats are a great method to recruit these extra fibers because they require more force to propel yourself forward, even though the pace isn’t as fast, and thus will recruit more fibers because of that. They also seem to not change your lactate curve by much, if any. Some will refer to this as non-specific lactate work. That is work at a high (relative to the individual runner) lactate reading but that doesn’t result in the deterioration of your lactate curve. Steve Magness has written about this and even produced data on it. I’d assume it’s still on his Science of Running blog.

If you’re more of a train the physiological system person, per Daniels, then you can simply think of it as a repetition workout to improve your economy and speed. Daniels doesn’t seem to talk much about bioenergetics and how the different workouts can influence your lactate curve, not that that’s the sole goal of training. He does emphasize that you train like an individual though.

How much and how regularly you do different sessions likely just depends on what distance you’re training for and your personal physiology. For 1500m, being able to generate and tolerate those higher levels is certainly a factor. For a marathoner, hills or a-lactic speed work works well, since the goal is largely to shift your LT curve as far out to the right as you can (as well as bring your AT as close to LT too), you don’t want to be countering that with workouts that would do the opposite.

I think it all comes back to individuality and balance! This is why most 1500m runners are not the best marathoners and visa versa. Each has a particular physiological make up that lends itself better to different race distances. I identifying that and then training to your specific needs is going to bring you as near your potential as possible.

Btw, sirpoc, I agree with the poster who said not to discredit yourself just because you don’t have a science background. You’re providing great insight into your training with relevant metrics, seeking to understand it, keeping an open mind, experimenting and adapting, and improving! That’s the scientific method right there, to me. When I got into running, after a year or two of reading the typical training books and articles, I made an effort to learn the physiology. While I did learn a lot in a technical sense, both biochemically and physiologically, I can honestly say that not a whole lot has changed as far as the structure I use and the workouts I run. Talk about a poor return on investment LOL.

So I'm doing faster speed as third session. This thread makes me seem to think I would be better off just doing 3 threshold sessions instead. You think that's likely the case for any hobby jogger?

Really interested in this thread as I'm Tri guy as well as a keen 5k and 10k runner. But this is totally wild what you have said. Insane actually. 330w FTP at 60 kg is crazy good. Like way into sub elite . You say you are or were part of the UK time trial scene? I mean you are sub 20 for a 10 mile and probably sub 52 for 25 right? You must be very fast. But it's totally crazy you can build that aerobic engine for these distances but be so terrible anaerobically. It shows you , you can become an aerobic monster for mid range distances on the bike and on foot for these mid range distances on time limited training. I suppose that is the trick to this training and why it will work.

It's incredibly interesting that with trial and error and KI's fantastic sharing of his data that you have basically been able to recreate this in your 5k and 10k times, on time crunched as well . You said you do 6.5-7 hours a week. I have that down as something most people could do, if they wanted to or worked up to it. You must be sub elite surely in cycling time trials, I actually think your running times are pretty weak in comparison. I guess you will go sub 17 very soon as a minimum.

This is a great thread and I think I'm going to try and start myself with getting in an extra sub threshold session a week. I think I have become hung up on race specific stuff. From Hard2find sharing old tinman threads where he ran some of his best 1500 off just tempo work and reading through spoc and all the examples here, I think I can take away from this the race specific stuff is crushing me a little bit in terms of recovery, for my age.

Thank you for your responses Sirpoc and Hard2Find! I think you've answered my questions.

Hard2Find- I was able to find the Magness blog referencing what you were talking about. Man- any topic and he's covered it!

scienceofrunning.com

Non-Specific Lactate work: Why you need it!

I n the last post, I discussed the use of intervals in training and how intervals have been misconstrued to mean “anaerobic” training, no matter what. That is not the case as it obviously depends …

Link:www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/non-s...

I think this blog post would be worth a read for anyone interested in the x-factor workouts. Additionally, there's another good blogpost where he includes some suggested (x-factor) workouts for fast-twitch and slow-twitch runners.

scienceofrunning.com

HS training: Neuromuscular and speed work

Neuromuscular and “Speed” work: Having covered both specific work and aerobic work during the competition period, I’ll now move on to probably the most controversial and perhaps confusing part of t…

Link:www.scienceofrunning.com/2008/11/hs-tr...

From following the thread I'd say your results at race distances of 3k and longer will improve more by doing 3 threshold sessions per week. You'd get more volume at sub threshold/threshold along with the benefit of better recovery and sustainability.

Very simple. Spoc seems to have a high content of ST (slow twitch) muscle fibers and therefore he will never become a good sprinter as those fibers can't be transfered to FT (fast twitch) fibers (at least most researcher believe so). That also explains why he can handle 3Q +L session per week, because he uses a lot of ST fibers, which need a shorter recovery time. Having a high content of ST fibers is very good for lactate removal, and therefore his lactate levels are not necessarily comparable to others.

Hi Lexel, could you explain more? I'm a bit confused by this. Obviously FT and ST fibres make a different. But why can't we use anything spoc says? He's posted up numbers. His lactate pro 2 results are very much in line with the average or general person and he knows from reading all the posts what his lactate threshold is. It's not like he's reaching his lactate threshold at some weird high or low numbers. We are 19 years on and what he has found is very much in line with Tinman's estimations from the thread hard2find posted up. So even though he is clearly a terrible sprinter in running, apologies to spoc but you are horrific sprinting on a bike lol I still don't think that invalidates anything. Funny anecdote, but most of us interested in 5k + are probably very slow twitch anyway. Farah went to his kids school sports day in full kit and got beat in 100m by a dude in jeans in the dad's race.

Lexel you have a strange habit of not really explaining things. Or making blanket statements . Or just thinking you are definitely correct and everyone else is wrong. You are like a slightly more polite version of JS without the crazy side 🤣🤣

Finally finished this thread this morning. Felt like a rough draft of a coaching book! Well worth the read btw for anyone who has dipped in and out. Really have enjoyed all the posts, special mention to spoc who really laid this out for an absolute old school guy like me who can definitely now apply this to his training. Shirtboy , I've always enjoyed your posts as well on similar sort of subjects. If I were going to coach like I used to, probably I would apply something looking like this to absolutely everyone to get the ball rolling, pretty much knowing it will improve them. It probably has its cap, but as mentioned that's when you could add in doubles on huge mileage and weekly x factor sessions, not just the occasional hard Saturday like spoc with his 5k parkuns or how KI pushes it some Saturdays to probably replicate racing.

Hi Spoc :)

Nowhere i wrote you can't use it, thats your personal interpretation.

This is a forum. So why you assume anybody has to explain anything? Do i get any money or gratitude for my posts?

Lactate production and removal happens at the same time. We measure the total lactate number of that and not any of those variables. Brooks et al, found that some portion of the lactate produced (mostly by fast twitch fibers), are recycled in the mitochondria. Maybe he gets the nobel price for that. Slow twitch fibers do have a higher mitochrial denisty as fast twitch fibers. So having more ST fibers and having a higher mitochondrial volume/density helps to reduce lactate. And this is only one side of the total lactate value we measure.

And there is the lactate production side, were using less amount of FT fibers, for the same pace, generates less lactate.

Therefore lactate numbers are not transferable from athlete to athlete ! It is more complex.

Can some troll please do an honest Q&A where they honestly explain what they get out of troll threads.

We all presume it's cos they live in a basement and have no friends but maybe it could be interesting.

Maybe some live in sheds

My apologies, wrong thread, clearly!

Carry on

Not that you asked, but…If I were going to explain it…and keep it VERY simple:

Slow Twitch = Type 1

Fast Twitch = Type 2a and Type 2x

Lactate generated by the fibers increases as you move from slow twitch to fast twitch. The faster you run, the more energy you derive from glucose (there’s an inverse linear relationship between fat utilization and carbohydrate utilization as exercise intensity increases). Fast twitch fibers require more glucose and thus, produce more lactate. The fibers have different “lactate transport” qualities as well. Slow twitch fibers will use the lactate to convert to energy. So while the fast twitch fibers are producing more lactate, the slow twitch fibers are absorbing it, in very simple terms.

By doing consistent endurance training over time, the Type 2a fibers will take on more of the characteristics of the Type 1 fibers, so they can further aid in the lactate absorption/conversion process. Paces in the range of easy to tempo, roughly, are what stimulate these adaptions. Think more and/or denser mitochondria, capillaries, enzymes and efficient transport ability in the muscles.

The specifics of how you do the workouts to generate these changes are largely based on that fiber make up the athlete possesses. If you are heavier on the slow twitch side maybe more volume at tempo and longer runs in general will maximize your potential. Conversely, if you’re more on the fast twitch side, slightly faster paced workouts, even though you’re targeting the same adaption will bring about your optimal fitness.

Great post!

How does that look, more specifically, as it applies to this thread? Would a fast twitch runner so more 1ks and 400s? Maybe mix in an X factor every other week? Lower overall volume?

Yes, I admit I have a very " crazy side", but not in the way you want it to be .... ; )). Many times my coaching results have looked to be "crazy" with fast improvements in short coaching time. One of many examples when the Kenyan elite marathoner Elisha Kipchirchir back in 2016 wrote to me and asked what to do to run a sub 2:09 marathon. Then he had a best of 2:13:46 . I explained to him what to do and I took on to coach him . After 3 months he won easy the Nice -Cannes marathon in 2:10:45 . Told me after he felt very strong in the finish and could have run faster if needed. When it comes to be polite you can check all posts I have produced here since 2015 and you will find I`m always polite to other posters as long as they don`t call me stupid, dumb, to be an a*s, lier, psycho and so on......

Of course this I wrote here doesn`t really is connected to the threads subject, but it`s the same with your offending post so I kick you back... ;))