Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

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2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:42pm EDT

re: Ernest

It's just so very hard for some people to make a moral distinction between the West and Russia. So very, very hard. Odd mental twitch that. Not that the West is blameless of course, but this kind of 'everyone is just out for themselves and therefore I shall not make moral judgments favoring one side or the other' attitude is not healthy.

It should be crystal clear that the West has less blame than Russia for Ukraine. If you can't say that out loud and believe it then you have a twisted soul that believes in nasty stuff and really doesn't have much respect for humanity.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:48pm EDT

re: Ernest

Ernest wrote:
Surely no one can actually be so dense or amoral. Or can they?

You are proof of your own amoral density.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:51pm EDT

re: agip

agip wrote:
It's just so very hard for some people to make a moral distinction between the West and Russia. So very, very hard. Odd mental twitch that. Not that the West is blameless of course, but this kind of 'everyone is just out for themselves and therefore I shall not make moral judgments favoring one side or the other' attitude is not healthy.
It should be crystal clear that the West has less blame than Russia for Ukraine. If you can't say that out loud and believe it then you have a twisted soul that believes in nasty stuff and really doesn't have much respect for humanity.

It's only "crystal clear" to you because you're from the west.

Amazingly, people from the east don't see things like you do...

It is baffling that you can't comprehend this.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:54pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
It's only "crystal clear" to you because you're from the west.

Everyone here knows "crystal clear" you are from Russia.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:55pm EDT

re: noperss

noperss wrote:
Ernest wrote:
Surely no one can actually be so dense or amoral. Or can they?
You are proof of your own amoral density.

Right. Being against torture, executions, and child soldiers is amoral. Got it.

If you're lining up folks for the next firing squad, you might want to have those mass-murdering collaborators at Human Rights Watch join in.

They keep whining about some Geneva Convention thing...

hrw.org

Ukraine: Respect the Rights of Prisoners of War

Ukrainian authorities should stop posting on social media and messaging apps videos of captured Russian soldiers that expose them to public curiosity, in particular those that show them being humiliated or intimidated, Human...

Link:www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/16/ukraine-re...

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:56pm EDT

re: Ernest

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:57pm EDT

re: noperss

noperss wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
It's only "crystal clear" to you because you're from the west.
Everyone here knows "crystal clear" you are from Russia.

Also baffling that you people think cheerleading for Ukraine makes you more American...

Ukrainians have WAAAAAAAAAY more in common with Russians than with Americans.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:57pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
agip wrote:
It's just so very hard for some people to make a moral distinction between the West and Russia. So very, very hard. Odd mental twitch that. Not that the West is blameless of course, but this kind of 'everyone is just out for themselves and therefore I shall not make moral judgments favoring one side or the other' attitude is not healthy.
It should be crystal clear that the West has less blame than Russia for Ukraine. If you can't say that out loud and believe it then you have a twisted soul that believes in nasty stuff and really doesn't have much respect for humanity.
It's only "crystal clear" to you because you're from the west.
Amazingly, people from the east don't see things like you do...
It is baffling that you can't comprehend this.

and you'd say the same thing in 1941, after Germany invaded half of Europe, right? that we just have to look at it from the Nazi point of view and stop being so darn polish-french-belgian-dutch-UK centric.

And probably after the Russians killed millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s we...just...had...to...see it from Russia's point of view and stop being so biased.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 12:58pm EDT

re: Ernest

Boris Kagarlitsky may have the clearest analysis of Putin and the war in Ukraine. He dismisses the NATO provocation as being just a pretext. Instead, he believes that Putin fears a popular revolution. Putin was very popular when he took over from Yeltsin. Putin reversed the economic disaster that Yeltsin presided over and that the West was happy to see take place. But when Putin returned to power after the Medvedev interlude, his economic renaissance stalled out and got hammered by the Saudi's flooding oil markets. He took Crimea in 2014 mainly because it was an opportunity that was there for the taking. Ukraine just went through the Maidan revolution and had no defensive forces in Crimea and no ability to marshal any sort of resistance. Putin's popularity soared after that. Putin learned that Russians will forget and forgive their government's dismal economic performance if Russia scores a win against the West. Entering the conflict in Syria on the side of Assad was a similar move (it also yielded OPEC+ membership). Recently, Putin has been in trouble with his dismal leadership during the pandemic and economic troubles due to oil prices crashing at the outset of the pandemic. Putin saw the rebellion in Kazakhstan and Belarus as a wake up call. His move on Ukraine was intended to again bolster his popularity at home and create a state of emergency that would allow him to crush any potential rebellion inspired by Belarus or Kazakhstan. We must confront the clear possibility that Putin's only intention in Ukraine is destruction and all the talk of NATO is just a pretext.

This is significant because many who fear an escalation of the conflict if Ukraine receives military support also believe that Russia is operating based on rational geopolitical goals. But as Kagarlitsky notes, this may not be true and Putin may just want to destroy Ukraine solely for domestic political consumption.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:03pm EDT

re: agip

agip wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
It's only "crystal clear" to you because you're from the west.
Amazingly, people from the east don't see things like you do...
It is baffling that you can't comprehend this.
and you'd say the same thing in 1941, after Germany invaded half of Europe, right? that we just have to look at it from the Nazi point of view and stop being so darn polish-french-belgian-dutch-UK centric.
And probably after the Russians killed millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s we...just...had...to...see it from Russia's point of view and stop being so biased.

Germany invaded Poland in 1939. So did Russia. The nazis and communists wanted to expand their empires and said so. Russia today is not doing that. Putin has been voicing the same concern for 2 decades and everything he's done suggests he's voicing his actual concerns. You don't have to agree with his concerns to acknowledge they are legitimate.

Communists killed millions of Ukrainians. They kill millions of people everywhere they get power. The notion that this is unique to Russian communists is idiotic.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:04pm EDT

re: Precious Roy

Precious Roy wrote:
Boris Kagarlitsky may have the clearest analysis of Putin and the war in Ukraine. He dismisses the NATO provocation as being just a pretext. Instead, he believes that Putin fears a popular revolution. Putin was very popular when he took over from Yeltsin. Putin reversed the economic disaster that Yeltsin presided over and that the West was happy to see take place. But when Putin returned to power after the Medvedev interlude, his economic renaissance stalled out and got hammered by the Saudi's flooding oil markets. He took Crimea in 2014 mainly because it was an opportunity that was there for the taking. Ukraine just went through the Maidan revolution and had no defensive forces in Crimea and no ability to marshal any sort of resistance. Putin's popularity soared after that. Putin learned that Russians will forget and forgive their government's dismal economic performance if Russia scores a win against the West. Entering the conflict in Syria on the side of Assad was a similar move (it also yielded OPEC+ membership). Recently, Putin has been in trouble with his dismal leadership during the pandemic and economic troubles due to oil prices crashing at the outset of the pandemic. Putin saw the rebellion in Kazakhstan and Belarus as a wake up call. His move on Ukraine was intended to again bolster his popularity at home and create a state of emergency that would allow him to crush any potential rebellion inspired by Belarus or Kazakhstan. We must confront the clear possibility that Putin's only intention in Ukraine is destruction and all the talk of NATO is just a pretext.
This is significant because many who fear an escalation of the conflict if Ukraine receives military support also believe that Russia is operating based on rational geopolitical goals. But as Kagarlitsky notes, this may not be true and Putin may just want to destroy Ukraine solely for domestic political consumption.

absolutely, +1.

NATO expansion isn't completely irrelevant, but it's just a cover story, for Putin to crush democracy and any western leaning among FSU states.

And to fool people like ernest and Adult, who really want to believe that Putin isn't all in the wrong and the US must, must be at fault in a major way. They want so hard for this to be an amoral power struggle among equals that they believe right wing Russian propaganda on many levels. 'Russia hoax' indeed.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:07pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
agip wrote:
and you'd say the same thing in 1941, after Germany invaded half of Europe, right? that we just have to look at it from the Nazi point of view and stop being so darn polish-french-belgian-dutch-UK centric.
And probably after the Russians killed millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s we...just...had...to...see it from Russia's point of view and stop being so biased.
Germany invaded Poland in 1939. So did Russia. The nazis and communists wanted to expand their empires and said so. Russia today is not doing that. Putin has been voicing the same concern for 2 decades and everything he's done suggests he's voicing his actual concerns. You don't have to agree with his concerns to acknowledge they are legitimate.
Communists killed millions of Ukrainians. They kill millions of people everywhere they get power. The notion that this is unique to Russian communists is idiotic.

yup, I knew you would go in that direction.

You believe russia is not expanding its empire, even after it has invaded one nation after the next. Got it.

It's America's fault. /sarc

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:07pm EDT

re: Precious Roy

Precious Roy wrote:
Boris Kagarlitsky may have the clearest analysis of Putin and the war in Ukraine. He dismisses the NATO provocation as being just a pretext. Instead, he believes that Putin fears a popular revolution. Putin was very popular when he took over from Yeltsin. Putin reversed the economic disaster that Yeltsin presided over and that the West was happy to see take place. But when Putin returned to power after the Medvedev interlude, his economic renaissance stalled out and got hammered by the Saudi's flooding oil markets. He took Crimea in 2014 mainly because it was an opportunity that was there for the taking. Ukraine just went through the Maidan revolution and had no defensive forces in Crimea and no ability to marshal any sort of resistance. Putin's popularity soared after that. Putin learned that Russians will forget and forgive their government's dismal economic performance if Russia scores a win against the West. Entering the conflict in Syria on the side of Assad was a similar move (it also yielded OPEC+ membership). Recently, Putin has been in trouble with his dismal leadership during the pandemic and economic troubles due to oil prices crashing at the outset of the pandemic. Putin saw the rebellion in Kazakhstan and Belarus as a wake up call. His move on Ukraine was intended to again bolster his popularity at home and create a state of emergency that would allow him to crush any potential rebellion inspired by Belarus or Kazakhstan. We must confront the clear possibility that Putin's only intention in Ukraine is destruction and all the talk of NATO is just a pretext.
This is significant because many who fear an escalation of the conflict if Ukraine receives military support also believe that Russia is operating based on rational geopolitical goals. But as Kagarlitsky notes, this may not be true and Putin may just want to destroy Ukraine solely for domestic political consumption.

This all makes sense and would confirm Vlads shock about the West's response - he truly views this as an internal Russian conflict.

Additionally, it's straight out of the dictator's playbook - struggling at home? Start a military conflict you are assured of winning - opps!!

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:08pm EDT

re: Precious Roy

Precious Roy wrote:
Boris Kagarlitsky may have the clearest analysis of Putin and the war in Ukraine. He dismisses the NATO provocation as being just a pretext. Instead, he believes that Putin fears a popular revolution. Putin was very popular when he took over from Yeltsin. Putin reversed the economic disaster that Yeltsin presided over and that the West was happy to see take place. But when Putin returned to power after the Medvedev interlude, his economic renaissance stalled out and got hammered by the Saudi's flooding oil markets. He took Crimea in 2014 mainly because it was an opportunity that was there for the taking. Ukraine just went through the Maidan revolution and had no defensive forces in Crimea and no ability to marshal any sort of resistance. Putin's popularity soared after that. Putin learned that Russians will forget and forgive their government's dismal economic performance if Russia scores a win against the West. Entering the conflict in Syria on the side of Assad was a similar move (it also yielded OPEC+ membership). Recently, Putin has been in trouble with his dismal leadership during the pandemic and economic troubles due to oil prices crashing at the outset of the pandemic. Putin saw the rebellion in Kazakhstan and Belarus as a wake up call. His move on Ukraine was intended to again bolster his popularity at home and create a state of emergency that would allow him to crush any potential rebellion inspired by Belarus or Kazakhstan. We must confront the clear possibility that Putin's only intention in Ukraine is destruction and all the talk of NATO is just a pretext.
This is significant because many who fear an escalation of the conflict if Ukraine receives military support also believe that Russia is operating based on rational geopolitical goals. But as Kagarlitsky notes, this may not be true and Putin may just want to destroy Ukraine solely for domestic political consumption.

Kagarlitsky is literally a communist. This "popular revolution" he wants probably isn't what you think it is.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:09pm EDT

re: agip

agip wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Germany invaded Poland in 1939. So did Russia. The nazis and communists wanted to expand their empires and said so. Russia today is not doing that. Putin has been voicing the same concern for 2 decades and everything he's done suggests he's voicing his actual concerns. You don't have to agree with his concerns to acknowledge they are legitimate.
Communists killed millions of Ukrainians. They kill millions of people everywhere they get power. The notion that this is unique to Russian communists is idiotic.
yup, I knew you would go in that direction.
You believe russia is not expanding its empire, even after it has invaded one nation after the next. Got it.
It's America's fault. /sarc

Who has Russia invaded?

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:13pm EDT

re: Ernest

Ernest wrote:
OH...TX wrote:
There you go again, Ernest. Always defending Russian mass murder by attacking the Ukrainian victims.
Hilarious!
Having an issue with child soldiers and portrayal of them is equivalent to "defending Russian mass murder..."
As was my taking issue with torture and executions.
Your posts offer plenty of complaint, but no factual content, so can charitably be chalked up to petty trolling.
Surely no one can actually be so dense or amoral. Or can they?

Always defending the Russian murders by attacking the Ukrainian victims. You're not "taking issue" with anything. You just mindlessly repeat and repost Kremlin disinfo all day long.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:15pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
agip wrote:
yup, I knew you would go in that direction.
You believe russia is not expanding its empire, even after it has invaded one nation after the next. Got it.
It's America's fault. /sarc
Who has Russia invaded?

counting the Soviet era: czechoslavakia, hungary, poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, eastern germany, georgia, ukraine...am I forgetting anyone? They have puppets in many nations like belarus. I'm sure I'm forgetting. Russian expansion is a very broad topic.

and now they are threatening moldova. no doubt they will invade moldova if they win in ukraine.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:22pm EDT

re: agip

agip wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Who has Russia invaded?
counting the Soviet era: czechoslavakia, hungary, poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, eastern germany, georgia, ukraine...am I forgetting anyone? They have puppets in many nations like belarus. I'm sure I'm forgetting. Russian expansion is a very broad topic.
and now they are threatening moldova. no doubt they will invade moldova if they win in ukraine.

The soviet era is irrelevant.

NATO exists to oppose Russia. Russia does not want NATO in its border. NATO said they wouldn't expand eastward in 1991. NATO then gobbled up all of eastern Europe and the baltic states. Russia did nothing.

Russia does not do what it does for no reason. NATO has been provoking Russia for 30 years now.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:23pm EDT

re: agip

agip wrote:
TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
Who has Russia invaded?
counting the Soviet era: czechoslavakia, hungary, poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, eastern germany, georgia, ukraine...am I forgetting anyone? They have puppets in many nations like belarus. I'm sure I'm forgetting. Russian expansion is a very broad topic.
and now they are threatening moldova. no doubt they will invade moldova if they win in ukraine.

veteransforpeace.org

Link:www.veteransforpeace.org/files/7815/51...

Russia is behaving JUST like the USA behaves.

2 years ago 03/22/2022 1:32pm EDT

re: TheAdultInTheRoom

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:
agip wrote:
counting the Soviet era: czechoslavakia, hungary, poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, eastern germany, georgia, ukraine...am I forgetting anyone? They have puppets in many nations like belarus. I'm sure I'm forgetting. Russian expansion is a very broad topic.
and now they are threatening moldova. no doubt they will invade moldova if they win in ukraine.
.
Link:www.veteransforpeace.org/files/7815/51...
Russia is behaving JUST like the USA behaves.

Nah you must have a corrupt, beaten-down soul to believe that, after all the evil Russia has passed around for generations including this very day.

I will now go back to ignoring you. I don’t want to have any of your dark crud near me.

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