No, you don't know that. Nor do you know how much a role genetics play when doping can't be separated from their achievements. That is the same with any doper.
So, which sort of doping has enabled Nyandika Maiyoro to finish 7th in the Olympic Games in 1956? EPO? Blood doping? Steroids?
Or was it maybe just a combination of the various reasons which are discussed since decades?
You don't appear to have caught up with the fact that doping has ballooned in the last 4-5 decades. It scarcely existed in 1956. The argument is not that every Kenyan runner in history has doped but that the country has progressively become one of the worst doping offenders in running in the modern era. Even Kenyan Athletics has acknowledged this.
Is anyone else sick of hearing how these East Africans are just genetically superior? They are in area where getting drugs is way easier than other parts of the world and in areas where drug testing isn’t even a thing. It’s awfully funny people think these guys are just better athletes. The only thing they are doing that Americans aren’t is getting away with doping. These guys debuting at times faster than the world record times ten years ago makes zero sense, humans didn’t all of a sudden evolve to be faster in the last 10-20 years. The entire area needs banned from participating in the Olympics until they get good testing.
I pretty much agree; maybe not 2:09, but yes you are sadly probably right. Personally, I think all Nike athletes ever sponsored by Nike have been forced to dope. This includes MJ and Bo. I believe it is why Bo hates Nike; they ruined his career which otherwise would have been incredible.
Worth pointing out again that before 1992 (the widely agreed year when EPO started to become widely used in distance running) no Kenyan had ran under 2:09.
Within 10 years, 42 Kenyans had run under 2:09, and within 15 years 97 Kenyans had ran under 2:09. Currently 385 Kenyans have run under 2:09.
Including Boston its 34 Kenyans, not 42. But only 24% difference for you actually is pretty good.
So, was Douglas Wakihuri clean when running 2:09:03 and when he became the 87 world champion?
Close, it was 33. But you almost managed to correct a small error (I counted to the end of 2002 instead of 2001).
I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean. Certainly clean of EPO. And definitely cleaner than a guy who just debuted nearly 8 minutes faster than him.
You might be familiar with the story of the Robertson twins, Zane and Jake, national record holders in events from 10K to the marathon. They moved to Iten, Kenya in 2006, and after about 8 or so years of training at altitude, started breaking national records, some set by Lydiard legends Dick Quax and Rod Dixon.
What do you reckon? Was it doping or genetics?
It could easily be both - as it apparently is with most Kenyan runners now. It likely won't be just altitude-training.
It could easily be neither.
It is unlikely Zane and Jake would have achieved the same results without moving to altitude, and living and training at altitude for a decade.
It is unlikely Zane and Jake would have achieved the same results without moving to altitude, and living and training at altitude for a decade.
What has training at altitude for 8 years got to do with genetics?
Do you not think the life shaping decision to move to Kenya and live there for 8 years, was a sign that they were 'getting serious'?
And didn't the Robertsons blow the lid off Kenyan doping, and get death threats as a result?
You are starting to preach to the choir. Doping, genetics, and altitude are three independent things, related to sub-2:09 marathon performances. Instead of limiting your thinking to just doping or just genetics, or just doping and genetics, you have to expand your arguments to include other factors like "a sign that they were 'getting serious'", as well as environmental circumstances like high altitude. You seem able to easily do this for the Western and Southern worlds of non-Africans, but not for Kenyans and Ethiopians and all East Africans.
Including Boston its 34 Kenyans, not 42. But only 24% difference for you actually is pretty good.
So, was Douglas Wakihuri clean when running 2:09:03 and when he became the 87 world champion?
Close, it was 33. But you almost managed to correct a small error (I counted to the end of 2002 instead of 2001).
I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean. Certainly clean of EPO. And definitely cleaner than a guy who just debuted nearly 8 minutes faster than him.
Not close, accurate. Learn to read.
I know that adding 10 brings you to the extreme limit of your arithmetic skills and that you counted to the wrong year - astonishing for someone with a IQ of almost 160.
Good point about Kelvin Kiptum. What's your explanation for this astonishing result? Doping? Only doping, nothing else? How many 23y old central Europeans could run a Marathon in 2:01:57 while using the same illegal supplements as Kiptum did (if he did)?
"I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean." - a rarity: a honest and true sentence from you (just a small mistake). How many times have you written that any Kenyan who ever competed was doped to the max.
So, which sort of doping has enabled Nyandika Maiyoro to finish 7th in the Olympic Games in 1956? EPO? Blood doping? Steroids?
Or was it maybe just a combination of the various reasons which are discussed since decades?
You don't appear to have caught up with the fact that doping has ballooned in the last 4-5 decades. It scarcely existed in 1956. The argument is not that every Kenyan runner in history has doped but that the country has progressively become one of the worst doping offenders in running in the modern era. Even Kenyan Athletics has acknowledged this.
After all those posts you still havn't got the subject.
So, Nyandika Maiyoro achieved his result clean? 7th at the Olympics. In 1956. How was he able to do this? The rest of the world just underperformed? In Rome 4 years later he ran faster than Zatopek ever did.
What about a 7:39.6 from Keino in 1965? Finally doping arrived and was widespread in Kenya, correct? Astonishingly, only in Kenya. Or are there other reasons for all those achievements? Reasons which are discussed since decades but obviously went unnoticed from you.
Just an info for you: everybody knows there is doping in sport and probably to some extreme amount also in Kenyan running.
Worth pointing out again that before 1992 (the widely agreed year when EPO started to become widely used in distance running) no Kenyan had ran under 2:09.
Within 10 years, 42 Kenyans had run under 2:09, and within 15 years 97 Kenyans had ran under 2:09. Currently 385 Kenyans have run under 2:09.
Is it worth pointing out again? Or is it a spurious connection? Besides EPO, what other factors did you consider for Kenyans in this same timeframe? When did Kenyans start widely running the marathon?
Didn't the Kenyan Ibrahim Hussein run 2:08:43 in 1988? Also 3 Ethiopians and 2 Djiboutians and 2 Tanzanians ran sub-2:09 before 1992. That's 8 East Africans out of 34 worldwide.
It might be worth point out that Kenyans and Ethiopians dominated the distance world in World Cross Country for more than a decade before 1992 -- your milestone for EPO.
1986 was a particularly good year for Kenya. Check out this world domination:
Out of 337 runners, they placed 5 runners in the top-10 (actually top-8). In the world, only the American Pat Porter, and the Ethiopians Abebe Mekonnen (sub-2:09 runner) and Bekele Debele could beat their 5th runner. They placed 9 runners in the top-50 (actually top-45). From 8th place England, only 2 Englishmen beat Kenyan's 9th runner, Sisa Kirati. Belgium took 10th out of 39 teams, and Kenyan's 9th runner beat Belgium's first runner. Take away the top-3 Kenyans, and they still beat every country in the world, except Ethiopia (losing a close 107-141).
In addition to the seniors, Kenyan Juniors placed 2nd to Ethiopia. Out of 172 juniors, the Kenyan juniors placed 4 scoring runners in the top-11, and the 5th non-scoring runner was 28th.
That's some amazing display of depth of talent, from 9 seniors and 5 juniors, in 1986, before EPO in 1992. Ethiopia showed similar depth, placing 7 senior men in the top-36 (same as Kenya), and 5 juniors in the top-6!
What do you reckon? Foreign agents bringing their 1980s doping culture to Kenya and Ethiopia as far back as pre-EPO 1986, doping the seniors and juniors with steroids and blood transfusions in villages with one light bulb -- out-doping the rest of the world with their vast economic resources?
Even disregarding the altitude adaptation, there is no need to postulate a mysterious "genetic advantage". It's obvious from the anatomy of East African runners. The ideal running anatomy is simply rarer among Caucasians. Not sure about some East Asians but there is the older adaptation to a cold climate (eyefold, "flat faces" etc.) that might be detrimental overall, so Japanese are very good at distance running but not as good as others.
And then there is the altitude adaptation without the corresponding cold (shortish squat anatomy like Tibetans and Andeans) adaptations. I'd guess there were some tribes in the New world who were also very well adapted to "hot altitude" but they might have died out long ago (as so many because of the introduced diseases). Or their old heritage from cold-adapted Siberians who had crossed the Bering strait impeded the comparable adaptation. I think we do see a slighter version of "hot altitude" adaptation in runners of north african heritage.
None of this proves that they are not doping on top of that, of course. But I think it is strange to deny the obvious anatomic and very likely altitude advantages.
What has training at altitude for 8 years got to do with genetics?
Do you not think the life shaping decision to move to Kenya and live there for 8 years, was a sign that they were 'getting serious'?
And didn't the Robertsons blow the lid off Kenyan doping, and get death threats as a result?
You are starting to preach to the choir. Doping, genetics, and altitude are three independent things, related to sub-2:09 marathon performances. Instead of limiting your thinking to just doping or just genetics, or just doping and genetics, you have to expand your arguments to include other factors like "a sign that they were 'getting serious'", as well as environmental circumstances like high altitude. You seem able to easily do this for the Western and Southern worlds of non-Africans, but not for Kenyans and Ethiopians and all East Africans.
Getting "serious" in Kenya obviously involves doping. It is also one of the dominant "environmental" factors.
Close, it was 33. But you almost managed to correct a small error (I counted to the end of 2002 instead of 2001).
I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean. Certainly clean of EPO. And definitely cleaner than a guy who just debuted nearly 8 minutes faster than him.
Not close, accurate. Learn to read.
I know that adding 10 brings you to the extreme limit of your arithmetic skills and that you counted to the wrong year - astonishing for someone with a IQ of almost 160.
Good point about Kelvin Kiptum. What's your explanation for this astonishing result? Doping? Only doping, nothing else? How many 23y old central Europeans could run a Marathon in 2:01:57 while using the same illegal supplements as Kiptum did (if he did)?
"I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean." - a rarity: a honest and true sentence from you (just a small mistake). How many times have you written that any Kenyan who ever competed was doped to the max.
No one argues that success is only doping; it is talent plus doping. Most dopers at the elite or championship level have talent. It is a given. But doping makes them better.
You don't appear to have caught up with the fact that doping has ballooned in the last 4-5 decades. It scarcely existed in 1956. The argument is not that every Kenyan runner in history has doped but that the country has progressively become one of the worst doping offenders in running in the modern era. Even Kenyan Athletics has acknowledged this.
After all those posts you still havn't got the subject.
So, Nyandika Maiyoro achieved his result clean? 7th at the Olympics. In 1956. How was he able to do this? The rest of the world just underperformed? In Rome 4 years later he ran faster than Zatopek ever did.
What about a 7:39.6 from Keino in 1965? Finally doping arrived and was widespread in Kenya, correct? Astonishingly, only in Kenya. Or are there other reasons for all those achievements? Reasons which are discussed since decades but obviously went unnoticed from you.
Just an info for you: everybody knows there is doping in sport and probably to some extreme amount also in Kenyan running.
7th at Melbourne in '56 means nothing. The gold would have raised questions. It also was an era that preceded blood doping and then EPO. There was no significant doping in the endurance events in running until the spread of blood doping in the early 70's. The only performance of Keino's that I would question was his 1500 at Mexico, which interestingly followed a visit to hospital.
I am not saying all performance is achieved through doping. But when the best dope, as has occurred increasingly in recent decades, then doping is inextricably related to performance. And so we see Kenya today.
Even disregarding the altitude adaptation, there is no need to postulate a mysterious "genetic advantage". It's obvious from the anatomy of East African runners. The ideal running anatomy is simply rarer among Caucasians. Not sure about some East Asians but there is the older adaptation to a cold climate (eyefold, "flat faces" etc.) that might be detrimental overall, so Japanese are very good at distance running but not as good as others.
And then there is the altitude adaptation without the corresponding cold (shortish squat anatomy like Tibetans and Andeans) adaptations. I'd guess there were some tribes in the New world who were also very well adapted to "hot altitude" but they might have died out long ago (as so many because of the introduced diseases). Or their old heritage from cold-adapted Siberians who had crossed the Bering strait impeded the comparable adaptation. I think we do see a slighter version of "hot altitude" adaptation in runners of north african heritage.
None of this proves that they are not doping on top of that, of course. But I think it is strange to deny the obvious anatomic and very likely altitude advantages.
Something that threads like this cannot acknowledge is that it is typically the most talented who dope. It will not turn mediocrities into the best. It makes the best near unbeatable.
Close, it was 33. But you almost managed to correct a small error (I counted to the end of 2002 instead of 2001).
I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean. Certainly clean of EPO. And definitely cleaner than a guy who just debuted nearly 8 minutes faster than him.
Not close, accurate. Learn to read.
I know that adding 10 brings you to the extreme limit of your arithmetic skills and that you counted to the wrong year - astonishing for someone with a IQ of almost 160.
Good point about Kelvin Kiptum. What's your explanation for this astonishing result? Doping? Only doping, nothing else? How many 23y old central Europeans could run a Marathon in 2:01:57 while using the same illegal supplements as Kiptum did (if he did)?
"I have no idea of Douglas Wakihuri was clean." - a rarity: a honest and true sentence from you (just a small mistake). How many times have you written that any Kenyan who ever competed was doped to the max.
I'm just going by the World Athletics list, though tbh, I don't think it really matters whether 40+ Kenyans had broken 2:09 in 11 years after the first or 10 years after the first. There's nothing more dumb than believing that Kenyans are a genetic offshoot of humanity because they dominate the marathon when they have 250+ busts since EPO came on the scene, and before EPO came on the scene they couldn't break 2:09.
There is virtually zero incentive for any First World country to produce dozens upon dozens of doped up runners who can pick up $5K cheques by placing at some random marathon. $5K changes lives in Kenya, it barely covers a months rent for the average Westerner.
Kenya and the marathon is similar to the GDR and the Olympic medal table. The GDR was motivated to produce dozens and dozens of medalists in multiple sports to finish top of the medal table. Kenyan runners (on an individual rather than state sponsored level) are motivated to win dozens and dozens of marathons. The end result is the same - a dominance that is the result of doping. Just as the GDR did not dominate the Olympic medal tables due to any kind of genetic advantage, neither does Kenya dominate the marathon due to any genetic advantage.
Even disregarding the altitude adaptation, there is no need to postulate a mysterious "genetic advantage". It's obvious from the anatomy of East African runners. The ideal running anatomy is simply rarer among Caucasians. Not sure about some East Asians but there is the older adaptation to a cold climate (eyefold, "flat faces" etc.) that might be detrimental overall, so Japanese are very good at distance running but not as good as others.
And then there is the altitude adaptation without the corresponding cold (shortish squat anatomy like Tibetans and Andeans) adaptations. I'd guess there were some tribes in the New world who were also very well adapted to "hot altitude" but they might have died out long ago (as so many because of the introduced diseases). Or their old heritage from cold-adapted Siberians who had crossed the Bering strait impeded the comparable adaptation. I think we do see a slighter version of "hot altitude" adaptation in runners of north african heritage.
None of this proves that they are not doping on top of that, of course. But I think it is strange to deny the obvious anatomic and very likely altitude advantages.
Something that threads like this cannot acknowledge is that it is typically the most talented who dope. It will not turn mediocrities into the best. It makes the best near unbeatable.
Reasonable to believe that doping could improve marathon times by at least 5 minutes. EPO alone has been found to improve 5K times by something like 40 seconds. Add in the rat poison, sarms, test, roids etc, and you could have a 7 minute + advantage.
Even disregarding the altitude adaptation, there is no need to postulate a mysterious "genetic advantage". It's obvious from the anatomy of East African runners. The ideal running anatomy is simply rarer among Caucasians.
You're looking at the anatomy of doped up runners dominating a sport which they would likely dominate simply due to participation levels and motivation, and then concluding that they have the perfect anatomy. Yeah, Kiprop had the perfect anatomy for 3:26. For a 3:35 natural level Kenyan on EPO.
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