Who had the better career - Deena Kastor or Shalane Flanagan?

Montego wrote:

I'll bet Benji Durden could go sub 3:00.

You don't have clue. Here is an except from his web site:

Any recent race results? This year (2018) I ran 3:48:52 at the Houston Marathon, 46:07 at the BolderBOULDER 10K and 36:15 at the 50th Anniversary 1968 Olympic Trials Run 8K. A trivia record I hold is for the longest duration between 1st win, the Carolina marathon 2/5/1977, and most recent win, Texas Quad: The Waddle 11/24/2017, a span of 40 years, 292 days.

A recent running activity of note: Amie and I spent our 2018 Thanksgiving week running as much as we could, and not much else. There was some walking as warm-ups and cool-downs for our runs, but all the miles added together to give us both PRs for miles in a week. Amie covered 188.3 miles with 160.4 of that running. I went 214.1 miles with 190.2 running.

So so wrong.

Benoit lived and trained in Maine with periodic trips to Cambridge, MA to train with the Liberty AC (members like Lynn Jennings and Darlene Beckford) -- she did not train with MDS or Salazar. Not even close.

She represented Athletics West as did Jennings. Neither trained in Oregon or with the AW crew.

I never said she trained with them. She was part of a club sponsored by Nike that had a "Do Whatever It Takes" attitude toward winning. Slaney got caught. AlSal got caught. Joanie's performances were so far outside of the norm, even for today, that it is more reasonable to think she was using PEDs than it is to think a 33 minute 10km runner from Maine can run 2:21.

Start reading here:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6749139

WEJO himself was surprised by the non-chalant atttudes toward doping at the club. Read Virgin's thoughts on page two where he says about Athletics West athletes

"I believe that everyone on AW from 1977-1980 was probably PED free. But, from 1981 on.... I have my doubts. To include Alberto Salazar's huge breakthrough year of 1982 in when he set the AR in the 5K, 10K, and marathon... altho he did start to break down and his performances slacked off somewhat by mid 1983"

Those were the same years that Joanie went from a elite regional/national class to a literal world-beater.. And Slaney ran her bests in that window too. All I'm saying is that that club and those performances aren't above suspicion. It prohibits her from the GOAT discussion.

The GOAT goes to Shalane because of the HS and NCAA career. Deena ran better professionally, but Shalane ran better at every stage of her development.

Joan lived in Eugene for a period according to her book.

Joanie running for Nike/AW does NOT prohibit her from GOAT discussion. That's asinine. There has never been a suspicion of PED use with her. NEVER. If you want to make that link, then you need to do the same with Flanagan and the Bowerman TC. Not a single positive test, but Jaeger was "likely" doping, right?! And they all run for Nike. If you're going to throw a huge asterisk at Joanie, then be consistent. Why not be suspicious of Flanagan's performances? Does Houlihan running 3:54 seem legit to you?

I like Bill Carr's post... a very elite club of Joanie, Deena, Jennings, and Flanagan. All four were amazing.

non O

I think the questions need to be asked of everyone who ran for that club in the early 80's , yes, just like we need to consider questioning the performances of AlSal's crew from 2007-13...

Bowerman TC has never been investigated by USADA, there have never been whistleblowers, or explosive suggestions (to my knowledge) about how the club or any of the athletes try to work around the rules (like TUEs or testing hormones, missing testing, etc.)

I'm not suspicious of Flanagan because she was national class in HS, best in the NCAA, and finally produced on the world stage working from 5k up to the marathon. Same with Deena. Both were tested heavily especially after their Olympic success. Joanie? When was she first tested? And for what?

She also never ran anything closely resembling a 2:21 at any other distance.

Her 5k best was 15:43

Her 10km best was 32:07

Even her half's were in 1:09 are still only good for 2:24 according to Daniels.

How many 2:21 runners do you know who can't break also 32? or 68?

Heck the US has five or six women now who run faster than those times and yet who can't touch 2:21.

Flanagan who had all the coaching and money and technology at her disposal ran 14:40/30:30 and 2:21. And Joanie in a pair of waffle flats training in Maine by herself in the early 80's somehow equaled that time accomplishment?

Americans romanticize Joanie's career because they don't want to think about it logically. Fact... The early 80's produced some dirty American runners, and those who got away with it have been elevated to idol status for their blue-collar work ethic. And Joanie "beating" the Europeans and Soviets rode that wave the rest of her career (which was essentially done after 1985). A world-beater from 1981-85, just like Slaney, just like AlSal.

I had a long conversation with Bob Sevene about ten years ago now. I wish I had recorded it. Someone should do an interview with him regarding Athletics West and the mentality of runners during that era, specifically how many runners in that club thought that to beat the Europeans and Soviets you had to "fight fire with fire." Joanie was a product of that time and thinking. and her results at her peak (83-85) are so far outside of her 78-82 results that it should be questioned. That disqualifies her from the GOAT discussion.

I recall that Bob Sevene was Benoit's coach. That would not have lasted long had he any doubts about her diet.

And why didn't the doping help her 5k/10k/HM? What type of doping do you do that just helps out the marathon? If you look back then thier weren't a ton of serious 5/10k/HM races out there for woman and I have to imagine her training was focused on running those 2 marathons a year. And no it isn't shocking when someones marathon is faster than their daniels prediction. That is the expected result for someone running their best distance. Is the reverse of someone like Wejo running 28:0x and then struggling to break 2:20.