Semenya update: IAAF argues she is "biologically male with a female gender identity" in new 163 page doc

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The rule only came into place in 2011. Caster struggled to break 2 in 2013-2015 so the testosterone restrictions-were clearly having an affect. It is however difficult to completely reverse the effects of over a decade of increased testosterone on the body.

Well, she did end up as Olympic champ in 2012 after all... but yes, not exactly dominant, whereas now she dominates even her roided up 1:55 competition. I don't think anyone argues against the testosterone restrictions having an affect. Unfortunately she changed her attitude - after complying in 2011, she is now suing and suing, and apparently winning.

The more I read about it, the more I wonder whether the IAAF botched this case on purpose (wasting years; singling out her distance, plus one higher and lower; singling out her 46 XY DSD; using questionable science; officially calling her "biologically male"). As if they wouldn't have any professional lawyers and scientists... I was really surprised that CAS accepted the IAAF reasoning, but not all that the next court stopped that ruling.

Very interesting conversation from the crowd here that is aware of the situation and what is at stake. The court of public opinion - if 'public' means people who don't really know what's going on and don't come to this site - is who's really deciding this. Is is simply too un-PC to relegate the women's 800 medalists to men's competition (at which they wouldn't be competitive at any adult level). It will take something like paparazzi catching Semenya unshaven (no possibility of intentionally showing up in public with 5:00 shadow of course) to sway the masses and have the worldwide narrative change. Hopefully something like this happens, otherwise adios to sex-based divisions. Most States allow boys into girls HS sports already. Ditto NCAA. CeCes will increase in number if there is no rule impeding this. WNBA will just become a minor-league farm league. This is no joke.

All the results of Semenya and similar men (Niyonsaba & Wambui) should be removed from women's history.

These are the Olympics and WC finals where Semenya is considered the champion:

2009 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei

2011 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei (3 time consecutive world champion)

2012 OG real champion: Ekaterina Poistogova (later banned for doping) or Pamela Jelimo (2 time consecutive Olympic champion)

2016 OG real champion: Melissa Bishop

2017 WC real champion: Ajeé Wilson

Those are the real champions in my opinion. Hope those athletes and their families now think so too.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The rule only came into place in 2011. Caster struggled to break 2 in 2013-2015 so the testosterone restrictions-were clearly having an affect. It is however difficult to completely reverse the effects of over a decade of increased testosterone on the body.

Not according to the document. On the top of page 17 it says she was "suspended" for 6 months while she began taking the medication and resumed competing in 2010 (middle of page 17). Therefore she began taking it in early 2010 or late 2009. It lists her performances after that:

1:56 in 2011

1:57 in 2012 and silver at the OGs

Injury/problems in 2013-2014

1:59 in 2015

Which is why I said she ran 1:57 on 2-3 years of hormone therapy.

czxcz wrote:

All the results of Semenya and similar men (Niyonsaba & Wambui) should be removed from women's history.

These are the Olympics and WC finals where Semenya is considered the champion:

2009 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei

2011 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei (3 time consecutive world champion)

2012 OG real champion: Ekaterina Poistogova (later banned for doping) or Pamela Jelimo (2 time consecutive Olympic champion)

2016 OG real champion: Melissa Bishop

2017 WC real champion: Ajeé Wilson

Those are the real champions in my opinion. Hope those athletes and their families now think so too.

Well, that would be a lot better than the current situation (although I wouldn't call them men). In an ideal world, the blood doper and roid user would be out too, so:

2009 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei

2011 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei (3 time consecutive world champion)

2012 OG real champion: Pamela Jelimo (2 time consecutive Olympic champion)

2016 OG real champion: Melissa Bishop

2017 WC real champion: Melissa Bishop

David S wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The rule only came into place in 2011. Caster struggled to break 2 in 2013-2015 so the testosterone restrictions-were clearly having an affect. It is however difficult to completely reverse the effects of over a decade of increased testosterone on the body.

Not according to the document. On the top of page 17 it says she was "suspended" for 6 months while she began taking the medication and resumed competing in 2010 (middle of page 17). Therefore she began taking it in early 2010 or late 2009. It lists her performances after that:

1:56 in 2011

1:57 in 2012 and silver at the OGs

Injury/problems in 2013-2014

1:59 in 2015

Which is why I said she ran 1:57 on 2-3 years of hormone therapy.

Clearly takes time to have full effect. By the end of 2015 she couldn't beat 2.02. What is that if not the result of hormone therapy? Her scientific advisers have claimed that she would lose around 7 seconds on her current level if she undertook hormone therapy. So, 2.02. Testosterone works.

Armstronglivs wrote:

David S wrote:

Not according to the document. On the top of page 17 it says she was "suspended" for 6 months while she began taking the medication and resumed competing in 2010 (middle of page 17). Therefore she began taking it in early 2010 or late 2009. It lists her performances after that:

1:56 in 2011

1:57 in 2012 and silver at the OGs

Injury/problems in 2013-2014

1:59 in 2015

Which is why I said she ran 1:57 on 2-3 years of hormone therapy.

Clearly takes time to have full effect. By the end of 2015 she couldn't beat 2.02. What is that if not the result of hormone therapy? Her scientific advisers have claimed that she would lose around 7 seconds on her current level if she undertook hormone therapy. So, 2.02. Testosterone works.

She ran 1:59 in 2015. And it was August, in Beijing -- Rudisha won that race in 1:45. I literally wrote that in the post you quoted.

I came back to this thread hoping to see some study showing a comparison between DHT and Testosterone on performance, guess that was hoping for too much :/

So you need an academic to tell you there's an advantage in testosterone. Of course you do.

While it is correct that Semenya is male 5-ARD, Tucker's point that with her testosterone reduced to the levels required by the IAAF she becomes a 2.00-2.01 athlete at best likely holds true.

RunRagged wrote:

Hyperandrogenism is a condition that affects only biological females with female sex chromosomes & female reproductive systems. To have hyperandrogenism, a woman must have ovaries or at least one ovary. Semenya can't have hyperandrogenism because Semenya has XY chromosomes, functioning testes & no ovaries.

This should be the quote of the day.

RunRagged wrote:

While Tucker's point about Semenya's time might well be true, his assumption in that article is that Semenya is female with hyperandrogenism, which is not true.

This should also be a quote of the day.

Hopefully this Y chromosome Male will soon be banned from women's competitions.

Thank you GD and RunRagged for the thorough posts.

With the revelation that semenya is a MALE with 5-ard, this whole saga has crossed into absurdity.

We have had 10 years of PC MSM coverage portraying her as an "unusual" female with high T who has been hassled by the man because they're racist.

Every sane person feels horrible for caster as an unfortunate genetic accident, but he is NOT a female. In the plainest terms: he is a 100% male with pitiable genital development. Full stop.

Am I correct in understanding caster is in NO WAY a female? No female breasts, no ovaries, no womb?

She is only female insofar as she was labeled such by her community from birth??

The trans issue is much more germane to her eligibility. The entire IAAF focus on 400-1500m was absurd.

Caster is a male and should have to abide by the rules for any other trans person.

I personally believe MTF trans have no place in women's athletics regardless of therapy, but I guess that fight is already lost.