Weetbix wrote:
Well done to Aussie Joseph Deng who broke Ralph Doubell's 800m record set in the Mexico Olympics in 1968! Also broke the Oceania record of Peter Snell's from 1962!
Long time but finally done!
Weetbix wrote:
Well done to Aussie Joseph Deng who broke Ralph Doubell's 800m record set in the Mexico Olympics in 1968! Also broke the Oceania record of Peter Snell's from 1962!
Long time but finally done!
Coevett wrote:
Read more carefully Nips. I didn't say they owed their success to being Kenyan, I clearly implied that there are people who think their success is due to their Kenyan heritage and that's the issue.
I didn't know they had Kenyan heritage. Sorry.
Coevett wrote:
I've already argued quite extensively how their success can be explained in an earlier thread
:/ I don't think I have seen that thread.
Coevett wrote:
they get funneled into running by their school gym teachers because of racist prejudices
Maybe they are not racist prejudices. Seriously, I don't know the stories behind these two athletes but why would their school gym teachers direct them to athletics?
Maybe they showed some talent?
Any Aussies here who could add some info?
Coevett wrote:
It's a shame that his coach, who is clearly one of the best in the world, is a believer in the Kenyan superiority myth, and handpicked TWO Kenyan refugee kids 'as the next Rudishas' to put all his coaching efforts into. A tiny continent that produced Doubell and Snell running similar times 50 years ago (Snell's 1.44.1 on grass would probably be 1.41 at Monaco) can surely produce similar runners today.
When Australia and New Zealand were dominating the middle-and long distance medal tables in the manner Kenya does today, they likely had a smaller proportion of the world's population. Oh and they were winning medals in dozens of other sports at the same time, not to mentioning dominating Rugby Union, Rugby League, tennis, cricket...and wasting countless athletic talent in meaningless garbage like Aussie Rules.
sub 1:46 800m times:
Kenya: 1983
Australia: 84
New Zealand: 13
sub 3:38 1500m times:
Kenya: 2237
Australia: 188
New Zealand: 193 (83 of them from John Walker and 58 from Nick Willis)
sub 13:30 5000m times:
Kenya: 2457
Australia : 164
New Zealand: 72
sub 28:30 10000m times
Kenya: 1948
Australia: 176
New Zealand: 49
sub 8:30 3000m steeple times:
Kenya: 2884
Australia: 75
New Zealand: 37
So I think it is highly understandably to question the myth, that Kenyans are relatively good in distance running and in fact Australians/New Zealanders are just better (or at least equal).
When have Australia and New Zealand dominated the middle-and long distance medal tables in the manner Kenya does today? The obvious answer is: never.
Coevett wrote:
doyourresearch wrote:
Please note who coached the the previous equal Australian record holder - Justin coached Alex Rowe for 9 years. Alex was a skinny, very Caucasian schoolboy who progressed to 1:44.40 in Monaco in 2014.
So why didn't Alex progress after that? Isn't that around the time the coach took on Deng and Boll?
In 2015, after withdrawing from WC an article has quoted that he had commenced 'post-graduate studies in medicine at Monash University'. Balanced life is my guess. Still holds seasons bests of 1.45.3 to 1.47.2 over those years, with the last two SB being in the Aus Domestic seasons. Wouldn't entirely rule out a return to 2013-2015 form.
As for 'hand-picking' Bol and Deng, please. Two wickedly talented youngsters, Deng 1.44 and Peter 1.48 at ages of 19, in Australia who have flown across the country to have the guidance of Justin! He's building a squad. Build it and they will come?
Coevett wrote:
It's a shame that his coach, who is clearly one of the best in the world, is a believer in the Kenyan superiority myth, and handpicked TWO Kenyan refugee kids 'as the next Rudishas' to put all his coaching efforts into. A tiny continent that produced Doubell and Snell running similar times 50 years ago (Snell's 1.44.1 on grass would probably be 1.41 at Monaco) can surely produce similar runners today.
Just what are you saying, Coevett? That it's somehow's Kenya's fault these South Sudanese kids have broken the Australian record? And how are they connected with Rudisha? You're very incoherent most of the time but even I can't make sense this. Your obsession with Kenya is driving you to insanity.
Oh they never dominated the way Kenya did but in the 60's with the results of Herb Elliott, Peter Snell, Murray Halberg and Ron Clarke. Australia and New Zealand were punching above their weight.
It is amazing that it has taken this long though. I have a few theories in regards to past coaching, other sporting pathways most notable AFL and cycling that have drained the talent pool.
Just a theory of course but an interesting topic to say the least. Just think 50 year old National record. Crazy!
Congrats to athlete and coach!
El Keniano wrote:
Coevett wrote:
It's a shame that his coach, who is clearly one of the best in the world, is a believer in the Kenyan superiority myth, and handpicked TWO Kenyan refugee kids 'as the next Rudishas' to put all his coaching efforts into. A tiny continent that produced Doubell and Snell running similar times 50 years ago (Snell's 1.44.1 on grass would probably be 1.41 at Monaco) can surely produce similar runners today.
Just what are you saying, Coevett? That it's somehow's Kenya's fault these South Sudanese kids have broken the Australian record? And how are they connected with Rudisha? You're very incoherent most of the time but even I can't make sense this. Your obsession with Kenya is driving you to insanity.
I posted an article here recently which had the coach explaining how he found them. He saw both running in a local track meet and claims he immediately saw the potential of 'the next Rudishas'. It's not the fault of these boys, but it is a shame that the best coach in Oceania isn't looking for the next Peter Snell, who would be running 1:41 or probably better on a Monaco track in 2018, rather than the 'next Rudisha'.
East Africans now dominating Australian middle-distance running, and yet you still seethe with fury at a 17 year old Norwegian kid challenging Kenyan supremacy? You're completely unhinged El K. Go sit in the shade in the garden and feel the cool breeze of the English summer, while you sip a hot cup of Earl Grey and dream of genocide against the British colonial invaders who still remain in Kenya.
Absolute rubbish as per.
Both boys were national junior champions whilst training in their own states, Bol holds the national junior meet record.
Both outgrew their training groups, sought out Justin personally, and moved to Melbourne to train under his guidance alongside, Rowe and talented Kiwi athlete Brad Mathas.
doyourresearch wrote:
Absolute rubbish as per.
Both boys were national junior champions whilst training in their own states, Bol holds the national junior meet record.
Both outgrew their training groups, sought out Justin personally, and moved to Melbourne to train under his guidance alongside, Rowe and talented Kiwi athlete Brad Mathas.
AS usual, Coevett has little idea what he is talking about. His hatred of all things African prevents him from thinking clearly.
Nips and tatties wrote:
Coevett wrote:
they get funneled into running by their school gym teachers because of racist prejudices
Maybe they are not racist prejudices. Seriously, I don't know the stories behind these two athletes but why would their school gym teachers direct them to athletics?
Maybe they showed some talent?
Any Aussies here who could add some info?
Because, as we see in this forum, and in fact in the post after yours (from Said88), it's a widespread assumption that East Africans have some genetic advantage for middle and long distance running.
I'm sure they did 'show some talent', I wonder if they showed any talent at the 101 other sports Australians compete in, or whether any similar white kids with talent, but with talent at some of those other sports as well, would likewise be funnelled into athletics?
Mo Farah was immediately directed into cross country by his PE teacher. 'Showing talent' could be just being better at that sport than any other.
I wonder who are tested more in blood Kenyans, or Australasians.
At least you're being honest in why you hate me Said - for questioning the myth that Kenyans are innately better at distance running.
At the Commonwealth Games this year, Australia finished top with 198 medals, New Zealand finished 5th with 46 medals, and Kenya came in 17th with 17 medals, all of them (I believe) won in athletics. Kenya finished behind the likes of Cyprus, Singapore, and Malaysia. Kenya has a young population of nearly 70 million, New Zealand an aging population of 3 million.
Kenya devotes almost all its sporting resources into athletics, and namely distance running. Even before all the ped use, it's hardly surprising they dominate 'sub 1:46 800m' lists. It's more significant that a New Zealander was running times on grass half-a-century ago that would have put him in contention for a place on the Kenyan team in 2018.
What exactly does your statistics disprove? That I'm wrong in saying that Australia or New Zealand couldn't produce another Peter Snell or Herb Elliott, and that coaches there don't need to look for the 'next Rudisha'?
And if we look at the odds of two East African refugees being the top 800m runners in Australia, it's not really so surprising. I think there is something like 100,000 Sudanese now in Australia (the legal ones), heavily skewed demographic to young males, like all refugee populations. That's a significant percentage of young Australians now. If practically all of them are identified by themselves and their pe teachers and then top coaches etc as 'potential Rudishas', it's not surprising that they get to the top of the pile, especially adding other (cultural) factors such as likelihood of obesity, the need to prove oneself as an immigrant amongst peers etc.
Not saying at all that Deng and Bol aren't highly gifted and I wish them all the success in the world, but it says nothing about whether Kenyans or East Africans are innately better runners than white Australians and New Zealanders. No more than Chris Froome becoming multiple Tour de France champion and the richest Kenyan born sportsman in history says anything meaningful about white people being innately better cyclists (or aerobically gifted sportsmen) than native Kenyans.
TID in Australia has gone by the wayside. Cycling in early 2000's found a host of champions based on what teachers or coaches saw in Australia.
How else does a country produce a TDF Green Jersey winner in 2017 who had no idea about cycling as a 15 year old. Or better yet the same school found another student who places 4th in the RIO Olympics and has produced 2600 watts of power on the bike?
There are 1000's of kids who have enormous gifts but few are found because of a host of reasons.
Athletics Australia is still a little bit behind to what cycling was doing but they are improving with the support they are giving talented juniors.
The big issue now is to stop all the top ones from heading off to the US College system but that will continue after double by Australia at the NCAA's in Men's and Women's 1500m.
Prediction is that now the barrier is broken there will be 4-5 runner's under that time in the next 2 years from Australia!
Again, why the anger at Kenya over two South Sudanese kids?
Surprising that the only mistakes he (?) does in giving the numbers for the 2018 Commonwealth Games are regarding Kenyas placing: not 17th, but 14th.
But, whatever he wants to show with mentioning these Games, the medals in distance running won by these 3 nations here in question are: Kenya: 13, Australia: 2, New Zealand: 0.
Clear pattern to see, Kenya is not special in distance running. Also that maybe 100 Kenyans (I have not checked) have bettered the (two days ago still standing) Australasian 800m record since it was set, is not so important as the fact that an New Zealand all-time great probably could have run faster as he did (1:41? - a number he just put out of his imagination).
Also, just very small quotes of him tell just as much as dozens of pages of written nonsense of this stranger. He obviously thinks I must be some sort of "fan of Kenyan distance running". I'm not - OK, I'm a fan of distance running, and since Kenyans are the best in the world (which is not to question!) in this department, for sure I have a lot of interest in them. But over the decades it sometimes is really little bit difficult to not sometimes always lose some interest because of the pure number of great runners all coming from the same nation, some of them at the top just for a short time that you hardly can remember the name.
The fact that someone just is interested in the truth seems something completely unheard of for Coevett.
I'm not talking to Coevett, since this is hopeless, but to readers interested in the truth: What does it tell about someone, if he prefers to stick with his wrong numbers, when they support the own point of view better? Really, has psychology some words for something strange like this? Kenya has a population of less than 50 million, not almost 70. This was told him several times before. New Zealand has a (aging!!) population of almost 5 million, not 3 million. There are many other examples like this.
What is the intention of these numbers at all? To relativate the medals won by Kenyans? (for sure he forgot the over 25 millions in Australia...). Yes, Kenya has the bigger population, and this relativates the numbers a little. But we all know that all, really practically all, great runners from Kenya are coming from a small part of the country. And the point is that THESE people must have been in some way well suited for distance running. They are. There are dozens of reasons for this FACT, which are discussed since decades. Doping also is a reasen for the success, but definitely not the only one as this stranger wants to show to the world. (Kenya's rise to the top in the late 50s / early 60s was just astonishing - only reason for that is doping? I can hardly find words to argue against such stupidity).
For him is the fact that Australasia almost 60 years ago has "produced" two of the all-time greats in distance running more important than the fact that Kenya YEAR AFTER YEAR dominates the rankings in any event from 800m to the marathon, sometimes to an just astonishing amount.
Coevett wrote:
[quote]said88 wrote:
[quote]Coevett wrote: Kenya has a young population of nearly 70 million
We’re actually nearly 50 million, that’s about 20 million fewer than the population of the UK. Is the extra 20 mil you keep inflating our number by your estimate of the Brits you feel would claim a right to live in Kenya should colonialism make a comeback?
Kenya has not won 13 distance medals at the 2018 Commonwealth Games, but 15.
El Keniano wrote:
Coevett wrote:
It's a shame that his coach, who is clearly one of the best in the world, is a believer in the Kenyan superiority myth, and handpicked TWO Kenyan refugee kids 'as the next Rudishas' to put all his coaching efforts into. A tiny continent that produced Doubell and Snell running similar times 50 years ago (Snell's 1.44.1 on grass would probably be 1.41 at Monaco) can surely produce similar runners today.
Just what are you saying, Coevett? That it's somehow's Kenya's fault these South Sudanese kids have broken the Australian record? And how are they connected with Rudisha? You're very incoherent most of the time but even I can't make sense this. Your obsession with Kenya is driving you to insanity.
That's it, an obsession. This guy is obsessed by Kenya since two years. He needs help, maybe someone can arrange that?