Jamaica's newest phenom Christopher Taylor rocked the "Champs" In Jamaica with 200/400 records

1. You don't take into consideration the fact that there were many Jamaicans competing (and winning medals) for other countries, such as the UK, Canada and the USA.

2. How do you account for Kenya's sudden dominance of distance events following a relatively paltry medal haul in the 60s and 70s? Same thing I suppose.

You don't think increased focus on the sport of track and field (at the same time opportunities for black American athletes exploded in sports like football and basketball), increased opportunities to train overseas, increased access to coaching has anything to do with these improvements?

When increasingly large numbers of future NBA players come from the continent of Africa will you attribute that to drug use? When the USA become a powerhouse in men's soccer will that be because they broke some rules? Why did the Finns dominate javelin throwing at one time? Why are so many of the best female tennis players Russian? Why do Asians dominate badminton and table tennis? Hell - why are most successful American sprinters black Americans from California, Texas and Florida? There are logical explanations for most of these questions that have little to do with breaking rules of any sort, but if you wish to be intellectually lazy and go the easy route and assume anyone who beats the grand 'ol USA is a cheater, so be it.

By the way, "trolls" are easy to deal with.

It's just a matter of discrediting their facts when possible - if they have any - and point out with every example how they're light on substance, and heavy on the extraneous.

Also, you referred to past LRC discussions about this topic, in which I'm certain you chose to set those trolls right by the strength and breadth of the facts about Jamaican T&F you brought to bear. If I were you, I'd use those now, rather than taking the same tack they'd take.

Your slippery slope slides both ways.

The West Indies were a powerhouse cricket nation for the longest time, and then suddenly became a bunch of nobodies. Your 'logic' suggests that they suddenly stopped doing PEDs.

something changed suddenly across the entire Jamaican cricket complex about a decade or so ago.

(my emphasis added for cool, hyperbolic scary effect, much akin to your own).

Talk to yourself much?

-1/10

Give it up troll. You lost long ago,

wtfunny wrote:

Your slippery slope slides both ways.

The West Indies were a powerhouse cricket nation for the longest time, and then suddenly became a bunch of nobodies. Your 'logic' suggests that they suddenly stopped doing PEDs.

As did the USA. The USA always 'won' the medal count--a USA media fabricated count--in the Olympics, then suddenly the rest of world caught up. The 4x4 troll's logic clearly means that most USA athletes stopped taking PEDs. The analysis supports PEDs are how the USA won so many metals in the past. There can be no other explanation.

Let's do it then. If you want to make the point - then present those facts. I've done the homework on Jamaican T&F Gold medalists - now it's your turn. Do your homework and make a declarative statement of fact regarding the 'other' Jamaicans that have won Olympic sprinting gold at any time in history.

I don't have to account - neither do you, since the topic is the Jamaican T&F case, which is the thread we're both in. This is the case I've researched, and its the case you're attempting to defend - with direct facts I hope. You're going far off-island to Kenyan distance runners, African basketball players, USA men's soccer, Finland javelin throwers, etc, etc, - groups that were never in Jamaica prior to 2004 doing anything to prompt the sudden rise in sprinting there. I see that you want to show parallel evidence - but that still leaves you without answering how the Jamaican sprinters did it

Asking questions about them is passive deflection on your part because not only are you not making a direct statement to explain the rise, but you're asking questions instead of giving answers - direct facts about Jamaican track and field. Each of those groups you mentioned is a case unto themselves and I'd guess that there are threads where others are discussing it based on facts and research they've done in those cases - as it should be.

You started by taking on the first fact I supplied, so if nothing else, you can take another shot at that. Or, you can counter the other five points of fact I provided.

Are you explaining the sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004 with this passive question? If so, make a firm statement of fact that I can address head on. I've given you facts to test as you please. Do the same for me. Support your case. Presenting this as a question - I can't tell if you actually believe it and stand by it - or are just floating it out there. Say what you will stand by.

By the way, I could make a stronger case for Jamaican sprinting than what you did there. But that's not my job - that's for you and other defenders. My focus will remain on the reason for the sudden rise in 2004.

Great, then it's settled for those groups.* Now, let's get back to the "logical explanations" focused solely on Jamaican sprinting since 2004.

Sad face :-( that you called me "intellectually lazy" - particularly after all the work I've put in - and that I hope you will also. If you choose not, I'll understand - and I won't call you intellectually lazy.

*Not really - since those explanations would only support each unique case where they're found to be factual - not Jamaica's unique circumstance, which should produce its own verifiable explanations.

wtfunny wrote:

Your slippery slope slides both ways.

.

But facts don't. Please provide the ones that support the unparalleled sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

6x6 extreme off-roader wrote:

As did the USA. The USA always 'won' the medal count--a USA media fabricated count--in the Olympics, then suddenly the rest of world caught up. The 4x4 troll's logic clearly means that most USA athletes stopped taking PEDs. The analysis supports PEDs are how the USA won so many metals in the past. There can be no other explanation.

I'm seeing words - lots of them - but nothing that explains the sudden unparalleled rise in Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

Let's do this.

6x6 extreme off-roader wrote:

(1)

Americans were the leaders in T&F for decades. The lead was lost. Why? Other sports took center stage. Basketball and Football went from the fringe sports to dominance in the USA. Jamaica, similar. T&F became a focus point for athletes. Jamaicans care little for the USA sports of Football and Basketball.

You'd have a point - if U.S. high school sprinters weren't still dropping national sprint records. Just off the top of my head, the girl's 100m record fell last summer, the boys' 100m record fell two summers ago. And no less than eight boys' and girls' records fell at Indoor Nationals. The talent is still there, so your theory isn't supported by the facts.

Also, this does not explain the sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004 - which is the topic - and which you should have covered directly under this first point.

2)

The USA is the world leader in grey-zone performance helpers. They are far ahead of Jamaica because the USA has more resource$$$ available, and have the money to hire top lawyer$ to keep keep the wolves at bay.

Americans have cheated. Americans have been caught.(no matter the level of star). Americans have been deservedly punished.

Still, what the Americans have done does not explain the sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

And though you don't acknowledge the Jamaican cheating - I give credit that you didn't deny it.

3)

See reply to (1). And, PEDs are rampant in the USA. The USA is #1 for use of illegal drugs in the World—heroin, cocaine, methamphetamines, marijuana, etc. are all banned and illegal but manage to sneak into the USA anyways.

I can't give you credit here, because you completely ducked acknowledgement of the presence and usage of PEDs by top Jamaican sprinters, as well as the suspensions of only the lesser or fading names.

And again, what the Americans have done does not explain the sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

4)

See reply to (1).

This is a complete dodge of the topic. Of course, I KNOW you won't deny the recruiting fact - given how widespread the practice and talk are on the island, and the Jamaican government's efforts to address it.

5)

Ever heard of NOP's special doctor, Jeffrey Brown?

Yes. There's a great article right here on LRC:

I'm not seeing anything in it though that relates to the sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

Why did you ignore the same for the good old USA?

Start a topic alleging American sprinters' use of PEDs - and if I disagree, I'll be sure to not ignore it. OR in lieu of that- you can just see my response under (2). But of course, this topic is about Jamaican sprinting - and it's my sincere hope that at least some of the respondents will actually speak about it head on.

4x4phreek wrote:

But facts don't.

They most certainly do.

Please provide the ones that support the unparalleled sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

I provided an analogy of how reductively attributing such things to 'PED's is simply unsubstantiated nonsense.

Jamaican sprinting did not "rise" in 2004.

wtfunny wrote:

4x4phreek wrote:

But facts don't.

They most certainly do.

Please provide the ones that support the unparalleled sudden rise of Jamaican sprinting in 2004.

I provided an analogy of how reductively attributing such things to 'PED's is simply unsubstantiated nonsense.

Jamaican sprinting did not "rise" in 2004.

this thread went off the rails fast. you two should go to the alley out back and have it out.

Props for discussing Champs, I know this is a distance oriented site but when something amazing is happening in any event, its newsworthy. Btw, I have seen Bloomfield and Taylor close up, I would guess they were about 5-7 and 6-2. That was last year, perhaps they have grown quite a bit. Both are amazing athletes, scary good. Also, I seriously doubt Bloomfield negative split a 400m, that is almost impossible to do especially when you are running fast time.

MortieMeek wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

Indeed.It'll be interesting to see how much more he improves. 45.2 at 15 is just ridiculous.

The hell with scary Europe and even scarier Eugene, my next big track viewing trip will be to The Champs. Hear the atmosphere is wild: live reggae music: the mixed aroma of jerk chicken and weed (not to mention that emanating from the locals) sounds like FUN.

Champs is an incredible experience, it is like Jamaica's Superbowl. It has gotten so big that it now last a whole week and is like national holiday. Try to imagine the U.S. having a true H.S. national championship that's held the same time and location each year; the kids take off from school and no other activities interfere with the meet; all of the top athletes and schools are there; there is also a team competition, it is covered live on national TV and the entie cointry knows who the winners are.

OoldPolarBear wrote:

Joel Przybilla wrote:

[quote]dudeskiii wrote:

It doesn't matter because Calabar is going to burn out Taylor before anything happens. That club is notorious for overracing their superstars... they need to be careful with this kid--he's only 15! If they cared for his longevity, they'd stop selfishly putting him in every freakin race. Several Jamaican articles have already pointed this out. Remember: Taylor is a monster, possibly the greatest raw talent EVER we've seen at the 400m. Don't ruin him for some stupid club races!!!

Thats the Jamaican system, race a lot then race some more, then go to Penn and race then come back to the island and race again.[/quote/]

Sounds like NCAA track and field

That has been a long held belief, but NCAA athletes actually don't race a lot. The average NCAA athlete will only participate in 6 meets in a season and will rarely participate in more than 2 events at a meet. I would not call that a lot, in fact, a lot of people feel NCAA athletes don't compete enough.

Of course there is a doping problem in the Caribbean, but not just in track & field but in all sports. In addition to age fraud, many of the Latin American baseball players who have been busted in the MLB started doping in their teens. However, this thread is about two outstanding Jamaican athletes and btw, Jamaicans don't need dope to run fast, they have been a sprint powerhouse since the 1040s.

Jamaica has always been a presence, but not a "powerhouse" until after 2007. Simultaneous with more aggressive suppression of doping in the U.S. including and after BALCO, Jamaican athletes stopped training in the U.S. and returned to the haven of their home island where they could train without testing. Pretty simple yet effective way to take advantage of the situation in the U.S..

Of course, Gatlin and Gay have shown that U.S. testing doesn't eliminate the problem, but it has had an effect.

The quote from Bolt that always stands in my mind is from a documentary on him: "Coach is a genius...an evil genius (laughs heartily)".

What you actually did is completely evade any effort to answer in specific declarative statements why and how Jamaican sprinting suddenly exploded in 2004. I entered this discussion by providing five declarative statements about Jamaican T&F - things which are easily researched and confirmed. I then added a sixth point. It's not difficult.

How much longer will you evade the effort to do the same?

For reasons known only to you, you've "reductively" dropped any reference to "sudden change" from your denial. The entire discussion emanates from that fully established fact.

To wit, as I wrote:

That's one Jamaican Olympic Gold in short sprinting from the end of 1952 to the start of 2004 - 52 years! (five decades actually, not four) - then suddenly , 11 in eight years!

Sudden change.

Why?

A quote: "The coach is the boss at the end of the day," Farah says, after his workout. "I do whatever he tells me and don't ask questions."

http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/mo-the-marathoner

MortieMeek wrote:

this thread went off the rails fast.

This is true. But that's inevitable for as long as the most vocal Jamaican T&F defenders choose to attack the bearer of facts - and American T&F, instead of simply showing why there's been a sudden surge in performance on the island. (Just count the number of direct insults, which I won't even bother to repeat here.)

Those defenders have to understand that skepticism will follow every feat by Jamaican sprinters - even where it's not clear it's warranted (as may be the case with Christopher Taylor), in the absence of a well-articulated and substantiated case for just how and why the sudden surge and assault on

the record books has been accomplished. Inquiring minds want to know. (It's not as if Jamaican stars haven't already been sanctioned for PEDs. They have.)

And where legitimate means are found, track world denizens want to copy the methods. But they have to know what they are first.

[quote] you two should go to the alley out back and have it out.

Yeah, the name-calling from defenders does give it that back alley look, which I clearly stated would "diminish" those who chose that route. Hopefully, we've seen the last of that.

By the way, until you can make it down to Champs, Penn Relays will give you a taste of what that atmosphere must be like ther, as Jamaicans and the Diaspora have in accelerating fashion moved the party north to Philadelphia, coinciding with the surge in Jamaican T&F. I've attended for more than 35 years and have witnessed the spectacle.