Herb Elliott is the GOAT over 1500m/mile, someone prove me wrong.
Herb Elliott is the GOAT over 1500m/mile, someone prove me wrong.
As far as I am aware, Elliot and Snell met only once, over 880y. It was after Rome, and Snell won. Elliot retired not long after because the way he trained and raced involved "a lot of pain", and after his Rome triumph he said he no longer had the motivation to do the hard work. He had achieved his goals, having been unbeaten over his favourite distance in his career, set world records and become Olympic and Empire champion. His career began only 3 years after Bannister broke the 4 minute mile barrier. Elliot transformed the landscape of middle distance running in a career of only 3 years.
For those of you who tend to underrate him, he carved a massive 3.4secs off the then world mile record in 1958, and did a similar amount of damage to the 1500m record when he recorded 3.36 the same year. His 3.35.6 wr in the Rome final was an incredible feat, and the silver medallist, Michael Jazy (himself a subsequent world mile and two mile record holder) said, "I won the race of the men; Elliot was a god". This was also the amateur era; after Rome Elliot went to study at Oxford for a career.
Snell never attempted Elliot's 1500m wr. (He hadn't been attempting Elliot's mile record either when he broke it; he was a novice at the distance and was simply attempting to beat 4 minutes for the first time. 3.54.4 was a pretty good effort for a beginner in 1962. And on grass). The only time Snell raced over 1500 was at Tokyo, when he destroyed the best in the world in the final. A young Jim Ryun and a certain Kipchoge Keino both failed to make the final.
When Snell raced Ryun in 1965 - and lost to him - he was basically running on empty, relying on the training in his Tokyo build-up the preceding year. It was a disastrous final tour, during which he also lost to the 800m silver medallist at Tokyo, Canada's Bill Crothers, over his favourite distance. In 1965 he was a shadow of the Snell who bestrode the Tokyo Games like a colossus. Like Elliot, he felt he had accomplished his goals, defended his Olympic title and achieved the 800-1500 double, as well as setting world records. He, too, was an amateur, and had to find a living. He was only 26.
Who would have won between Elliot and Snell in a peak match-up over 1500m or a mile? Snell had the strength and explosive finish - no one in his era came close - but Elliot had an incredible sustained finishing drive over 600m that would leave the field drowning behind him. It would have been an incredible race.
Spider wrote:
But seriously, both Snell and Elliot are two of my favorite athletes to watch when/if ever I can see old film on them. They're simply marvelous runners. But in Elliot's defense, Snell never did come close to Elliot's 1500m WR (3:35.6), which was roughly the equivalent of a 3:52 mile; that had to wait for Ryun to demolish. But both of them were among the best racers ever, back in the dark ages when people had to run on cinders and the whole sport had no money in it at all. The one advantage of the professional era is that I suspect that with money around, Elliot would've met Snell in the '64 Olympic 1500m final (and probably wouldn't have left the race for a last minute kick, either); conceivably, both might have still run through '68 to meet Ryun and Keino (just like El-G ran in '96, '00, '04).
Also, I believe Elliot and Bayi are the only two athletes in the sub-4 era to set a 1500m WR in a major championship final (though Keino's 3:34.9 at altitude probably should count too).
It's crazy (and sad) to think of the incredible matchups we might have had in the history of track if it hadn't been the norm for athletes to retire and pursue their non-athletic careers by 25.
Bannister could actually have raced Elliott while still being close to his athletic prime. He was still only 31 in 1960. Elliott was still only 29 when Ryun broke his WR. Snell himself says he would have gone on to the Mexico Olympics (where he would still only be 29) if he had been able to financially, and believes he would have won (although he admitted that the 1500m would have been difficult at altitude). We really could have had Elliott vs Snell vs Ryun vs Kenio in 68.
Guys like Elliott might have retired because of 'lack of motivation' and such to continue the hard training, but I'm sure if they were earning Mo Farah money (and maybe sports medicine was as advanced as today) they would have gone on well into their 30s, close to the top of their game.
Elliott ran 3:35 in an Olympic final at barely 22 years of age and then retired the next year. 1500m runners nearly always reach their peak at around 25 or 26, so he almost certainly would have gone quite a bit faster.
If you put him in a time machine in 1961 and brought him to today, gave him a million pound sponsorship to train for 2020, the only guy who could possibly beat him would be Jakob. Sub 3:29 for both.
It's funny how a continent with a total population of the time of around 12 million could produce an 800m runner (Snell) who likely could run at least 1:42 today, and a 1500m runner (Elliott) who certainly had the athletic ability to run sub 3:30 today, both almost certainly clean, and definitely decades before EPO. Yet it's certainly in question now whether East Africa (Ethiopia and Kenya) with a combined population of 150 million can do either of those things drug free, and if they can, only very rare outliers such as Rudisha and..well, who knows in the 1500m?
Jake1500 wrote:
"But Cerruty coached both Landy and Elliot, which is quite a resume. I would like to get ahold of one of his books one of these days (alibris et al occasionally has one for $100+, which is a bit much)."
I just read Percy Cerutty's Autobiography "Why Die?" it was so awesome. everytime i read a bit i just wanted to go for a crazy hard run. it was only about $25 Australian. (Best $25 ive ever spent)[quote]Spider wrote:
I just searched for why die and its over $80 in the us (about 112 australian), but 4 cerutty authored titles are on amazon for 20-25$ us.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=percy+ceruttyScrotevette wrote:
It's funny how a continent with a total population of the time of around 12 million could produce an 800m runner (Snell) who likely could run at least 1:42 today, and a 1500m runner (Elliott) who certainly had the athletic ability to run sub 3:30 today, both almost certainly clean, and definitely decades before EPO. Yet it's certainly in question now whether East Africa (Ethiopia and Kenya) with a combined population of 150 million can do either of those things drug free, and if they can, only very rare outliers such as Rudisha and..well, who knows in the 1500m?
Might have something to do with all the doping found to be going on there?
Scrotevette wrote:
Elliott ran 3:35 in an Olympic final at barely 22 years of age and then retired the next year. 1500m runners nearly always reach their peak at around 25 or 26, so he almost certainly would have gone quite a bit faster.
If you put him in a time machine in 1961 and brought him to today, gave him a million pound sponsorship to train for 2020, the only guy who could possibly beat him would be Jakob. Sub 3:29 for both.
It's funny how a continent with a total population of the time of around 12 million could produce an 800m runner (Snell) who likely could run at least 1:42 today, and a 1500m runner (Elliott) who certainly had the athletic ability to run sub 3:30 today, both almost certainly clean, and definitely decades before EPO. Yet it's certainly in question now whether East Africa (Ethiopia and Kenya) with a combined population of 150 million can do either of those things drug free, and if they can, only very rare outliers such as Rudisha and..well, who knows in the 1500m?
Um, Australia and New Zealand are not a "continent". They are completely separate countries, separated by the Tasman Sea. Australia might qualify on its own as a continent but New Zealand is three relatively small islands, and with a small population. It makes Lydiard's achievements all the more remarkable.
Coevett wrote:
Spider wrote:
But seriously, both Snell and Elliot are two of my favorite athletes to watch when/if ever I can see old film on them. They're simply marvelous runners. But in Elliot's defense, Snell never did come close to Elliot's 1500m WR (3:35.6), which was roughly the equivalent of a 3:52 mile; that had to wait for Ryun to demolish. But both of them were among the best racers ever, back in the dark ages when people had to run on cinders and the whole sport had no money in it at all. The one advantage of the professional era is that I suspect that with money around, Elliot would've met Snell in the '64 Olympic 1500m final (and probably wouldn't have left the race for a last minute kick, either); conceivably, both might have still run through '68 to meet Ryun and Keino (just like El-G ran in '96, '00, '04).
Also, I believe Elliot and Bayi are the only two athletes in the sub-4 era to set a 1500m WR in a major championship final (though Keino's 3:34.9 at altitude probably should count too).
It's crazy (and sad) to think of the incredible matchups we might have had in the history of track if it hadn't been the norm for athletes to retire and pursue their non-athletic careers by 25.
Bannister could actually have raced Elliott while still being close to his athletic prime. He was still only 31 in 1960. Elliott was still only 29 when Ryun broke his WR. Snell himself says he would have gone on to the Mexico Olympics (where he would still only be 29) if he had been able to financially, and believes he would have won (although he admitted that the 1500m would have been difficult at altitude). We really could have had Elliott vs Snell vs Ryun vs Kenio in 68.
Guys like Elliott might have retired because of 'lack of motivation' and such to continue the hard training, but I'm sure if they were earning Mo Farah money (and maybe sports medicine was as advanced as today) they would have gone on well into their 30s, close to the top of their game.
Thinking of possible career overlaps that could have happened but did not is always fun. It is interesting that back in the day Africans were the more likely to have extended careers. Wolde competed from '56 -72. Gammoudi from '64-72 and Yifter of course from '72-80.
Jozef Plachy did make the 800 final in '68 and the 1500 final in '80 though.
By today's standards, both Elliot and Snell had short careers. They were amateurs. Something else we don't generally take into account is that to compete in the US and Europe they were coming from their off-season. That wasn't easy to do. It isn't entirely coincidental that Snell's record-breaking spree in '62 was in the NZ summer. But in major championships, he - like Elliot - had to find his best form off a Southern Hemisphere winter.
Elliot's record over the 1500/mile speaks for itself, but Snell's falls more into the realm of a largely unexplored continent. He began his career as a half-miler; he only began to turn seriously to the mile quite some time after his 800 victory in Rome, and because Lydiard - wise man - believed he had the potential to be successful at the longer distance. When Snell broke Elliot's record in January '62, he wasn't aiming to do that; he was trying to beat 4 minutes for the first time in his young career. During the race he was on 4 minute pace up to the final, yet his explosion at that point was so prodigious he crossed the line in a little over 3.54. It was an incredible novice effort - way beyond his own expectations. The only time he actually went for the record he ran a poorly judged race off declining fitness following his Tokyo triumph. He still beat it.
Snell's miling career was only 3 seasons - from '62 to '64. He almost only ran to win, not for time. He never lost a championship race or a contest with his major rivals. Totally clutch. He said his approach to the mile was that the race didn't really begin until the last lap - the first three were about "relaxation and positioning". His incredible finishing power took care of the rest. At his peak between '62 till Tokyo, he was untouchable at the distance (as well as his more familiar half-mile). I have never seen a runner who could so utterly dispose of his competition within a dozen strides over the last 200m.
Snell never attempted Elliot's 1500 record and only ran the distance at the Tokyo Games. A match-up between the two great athletes would have been a tremendous race but I might have to give the nod to a peak Snell - his basic speed was much higher than Elliot's - he was a 1.44 800m man against a 1.47 runner, and he was never seriously extended in the event (I don't count his off-form disastrous final tour in '65). With his speed and endurance he should probably have been the first man under 3.50, but he wasn't pushed and his career was short.
If I could some up in one word what made Elliot and Snell great it is "ownership". Both runners completely dominated the competition in their respective eras. They seemed invincible. You kind of had to be there to see it. There have been great runners since but none, I suggest, who so separated themselves from the best of their time, so as to appear to be unbeatable. And they were. You can see why they retired early (by today's standards), they weren't professionals and they had nothing left to prove or achieve.
I can also understand why Moens thought Snell the greatest ever. At Rome in '60, Moens was the reigning world record-holder over 800m - and it was a good record. He lost in the final to an unknown 21-year old novice, who had only started running seriously a couple of seasons earlier. For some time after Rome he thought Snell's win was a fluke. But after Tokyo he maintained he had never seen such a runner. No one in middle distance has matched Snell's Tokyo 800/1500 feat since - and we have seen some great runners.
As for longevity in the amateur days, remember Dellinger made 3 Olympic teams and Young 4, each winning a bronze. Ryun made 3 as well but, alas, no medals.
limping along wrote:
Elliott also has the distinction of writing (with help from Trengove) what is arguably the best book by a runner, "The Golden Mile." Unfortunately it's hard to find.
It is available on Kindle:
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Mile-Elliotts-biography-Trengove-ebook/dp/B07CT96NXV/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1540346428&sr=1-5&keywords=golden+mile&dpID=51FIWsyoEIL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srchThe dead trees format will cost you some serious coin for a book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000CL0N8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0000CL0N8&linkCode=am2&tag=booksprice-20&condition=usedFor you millenials out there, who aren't so impressed with the old guys because their times aren't exceptional today (they didn't have all the advantages of modern runners, including - er - EPO), one way of looking at it is that Elliot was the El G of his generation. Except he didn't lose a race at his championship distance. Not bad. Snell, on the other hand, was both the Rudisha and El G of his era. And didn't lose a championship race. Incredible.
St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
limping along wrote:
Elliott also has the distinction of writing (with help from Trengove) what is arguably the best book by a runner, "The Golden Mile." Unfortunately it's hard to find.
It is available on Kindle:
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Mile-Elliotts-biography-Trengove-ebook/dp/B07CT96NXV/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1540346428&sr=1-5&keywords=golden+mile&dpID=51FIWsyoEIL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srchThe dead trees format will cost you some serious coin for a book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000CL0N8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0000CL0N8&linkCode=am2&tag=booksprice-20&condition=used
No Bugles, No Drums - Snell's autobiography, assisted by Garth Gilmour, is also an excellent book. Both efforts give real insight into the mind of a champion.
Armstronglivs wrote:
St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
It is available on Kindle:
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Mile-Elliotts-biography-Trengove-ebook/dp/B07CT96NXV/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1540346428&sr=1-5&keywords=golden+mile&dpID=51FIWsyoEIL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srchThe dead trees format will cost you some serious coin for a book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000CL0N8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0000CL0N8&linkCode=am2&tag=booksprice-20&condition=usedNo Bugles, No Drums - Snell's autobiography, assisted by Garth Gilmour, is also an excellent book. Both efforts give real insight into the mind of a champion.
If I can remember Snell would do 20x400m on the side of the road, I think he had a stress fracture at one stage in his career, not surprisingly (either 1963 or 1965), and the media said he was finished because he could only manage 3:55 on chewed up cinders with a fairly sizeable crack. The man was a tank.
Probably not many know this but he ran 1.44.9 for 880y in a relay early in 1961 (1.44.1 for 800m). He was trying to make up a 20m deficit on the American runner in front of him. Which he did in one lap. He had no idea of what he was capable of.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
No Bugles, No Drums - Snell's autobiography, assisted by Garth Gilmour, is also an excellent book. Both efforts give real insight into the mind of a champion.
If I can remember Snell would do 20x400m on the side of the road, I think he had a stress fracture at one stage in his career, not surprisingly (either 1963 or 1965), and the media said he was finished because he could only manage 3:55 on chewed up cinders with a fairly sizeable crack. The man was a tank.
I think the stress fracture was late '63. He was out for some time. When he came back early in '64 his countryman (and bronze medallist at Tokyo) John Davies picked him off a couple of times. The press started to write him off. But he was able to put in the Lydiard conditioning work over the winter of '64 - and the rest is, as they say, history.
He was so confident at Tokyo that when he found himself boxed in at 200m to go in the 800m he actually dropped back to extricate himself and then turned on the turbo-charge to go right around the field. It's kind of funny watching the guys floundering behind him in the straight, as though they have been caught in a jet stream - or the turbulence of a battleship, and they are bobbing around like dinghys. The 1500 was much the same. Everyone else in the race was waiting for his inevitable move in the final lap, and when it came it was like a tsunami, demolishing all before him and leaving the other runners scrapping desperately for the minor placings. A tank, for sure, but with jet-engines.
Snell ran a mile in 3:54 on grass. I seriously wonder if anyone could do that today even with all of the
advantages we have now.
William Peyton wrote:
Snell ran a mile in 3:54 on grass. I seriously wonder if anyone could do that today even with all of the
advantages we have now.
A well-kept grass track is actually pretty good to run on, if not quite up there with a modern track. But, yeah - it was probably worth 2-3 seconds today. What I find more impressive is that his 3.54 was his first serious race over the distance and all he was hoping to do was break four minutes (his previous best was about 4.01). When he kicked - exploded - from about 250y out in the final lap the Englishman, Bruce Tulloh, was leading. At the finish, Tulloh was 5 seconds behind. Unbelievable power. Snell later said he finished "full of running". It should have been the first sub-3.50 mile.
Yeah my understanding is that herb was beaten over the mile at school by a lad around three years older than he when he was 14.