Lifting... is it worth it?

Thanks Allan for all the info. I really appreciate it. You said don't bench, why? I started doing it about 3 weeks ago and my times started dropping and am able to last longer before the burning in my chest starts during hard runs. Why is bench press bad for you? Thanks again

Correlation does not equal causation.

The bench can cause more problems than it's worth (rotator cuff issues, impingement, etc). I just don't think it's the best exercise for runners. Lifting for runners should be minimal due to the time and energy. An athlete already running 7-14 hours a week is already walking a line between progression and overtraining.

For a runner, the push press or even the dip is a better exercise than the bench. Stronger shoulders make for a strong arm carriage.

Alan

Throwers and power lifters need to bench, no one else. Push ups are better as are push presses. Personally dips hurt my sternum so I never do them and like most people, many who are not aware yet, bench pressing has hurt my shoulders.

Following your coach's training plan, is it worth it? As long as you are improving I hope the answer is yes.

big time troll wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Mass does not equal strength and strength does not equal mass.

You can get stronger without gaining an ounce of weight.

No one is saying to bench.

Lifting will help prevent injury.

Lifting will improve running economy which might make you faster.

A little goes a long way.

Alan

STOP signing your name to your posts, TROLL!

Runningart2004 puts out some great information on LR. So how about instead you STFU.

I youtubed several videos of RDLs to see the correct form. And had no idea what a push press was also till i saw it. Is it possible to do the push press with a dumb bell on each hand? If i had to choose one which one is better push press or dips for 800/1500 runner? I have to pick a weight that i could even lift to my shoulders first that is a problem.

Hey thanks so much Allan. You have been a lot of help. I will let you know if I PR.

One thing i can say is form is very important. I was doing my jumps before without really thinking about what one could do wrong like collapsing your knees and bending your back. Oh and i am so weak all I could do was 80 lb RDL. Could have done 90 but didnt want to push it.

If you're young and not injury prone, you can get by without it just fine. If you want to keep running as you get older (especially after 40), it gets a lot more important. I think masters runners who do nothing but run are asking for trouble.

Weight isn't important, progression is.

Dumbbells are great. I prefer Dumbbells for some movements. For overhead pressing such as push press use a neutral grip (palms facing in) and press up from the shoulder upper arms in front of you vs out to the side.

RDL can be tricky as it's easy to muscle up the weight with shoddy form or a rolled back. Focus on feeling the movement in the hamstrings, focus on hip hinging.

Pick a routine, stick with it, follow your progression. Next off season change it up, follow that progression, etc, etc, etc.

Progress from simple movements to more complex. Progress from basic strength to more explosive (you could do dips early in off season then switch to push press as season begins).

Keep in mind it's already almost February.....starting a strength training program now could be problematic as outdoor is approaching and if you were going to lift you should have started in December.....

These threads pop up from time to time and they follow a familiar path. One of these days I'll just put together a free e-book and just post that.

Alan

Bob Sacamano wrote:

If you're young and not injury prone, you can get by without it just fine. If you want to keep running as you get older (especially after 40), it gets a lot more important. I think masters runners who do nothing but run are asking for trouble.

I'll second this. In my 20s and 30s, I was a nothing but run guy. I thought an hour spent strength training ment an hour not spent running. I was training for marathons and didn't want to waste any training time with non-running activities. And that probably allowed me to max out my marathon potential.

The game began to change in my mid and late 30s. Injuries became a lot more frequent, until I eventually had to have a surgery. I now see strength training as essential preventative maintenance and is well worth the training time, even if it means less running time. I couldn't run much at all without it.

Some Runner wrote:

One thing i can say is form is very important. I was doing my jumps before without really thinking about what one could do wrong like collapsing your knees and bending your back. Oh and i am so weak all I could do was 80 lb RDL. Could have done 90 but didnt want to push it.

I messed around and did an RDL for the first time back in 2004 when I was still a competitive runner.....my back was sore for a week. Ego can be your worst enemy in the gym.

Runners are weak, insanely weak, keep that in mind, keep your ego in check, underperform for a month so your body can adjust.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

When you squat, break parallel. This means the hip crease is below the top of the knee. Look up powerlifting depth for squat. You should maintain a flat back and not let your hips roll into a "butt wink". For most lifters getting more than just breaking parallel would result in a "butt wink", which is none too healthy for your spine......we could literally talk for hours on how to perform a proper squat and techniques used to "fix" your squat, some of which are "bandaids" others of which are meant to improve hip and ankle mobility (most runners have poor hip and ankle mobility).

Alan

Alan- what about only going as deep as a half squat? Obviously a*s to grass is a common phrase used when instructing squat depth, but in regard to the specificity of the lift what about only going down to a 90 deegree and at the knee? That is still well beyond the range of motion of the knee commonly seen during running gait

Another thread touched on 1/2 squats and trainers like Joe Kenn (currently with Carolina Panthers) has many athletes do quarter squats. This is something he learned when he was at Boise St working with high jump coach Joe Jacoby.

There's a lot of good strength coaches out there who advocate the use of partial squats due to the specific carry over to your sport. You have to look at the athlete's complete progression though. A HS football player will be doing tons of squats and it's taught you should use a complete range of motion to ensure strength development across the entire range of motion. Doing a quarter squat or half squat is like doing partial reps on the bench or partials on a a curl. It has a benefit but should be weighed against an athlete's needs and overall development. So take HS football player and now he's in college. At this point in his career it may be beneficial to do partial reps as a specific exercise to overload the unique angle needed in his sport.

Think of the overall picture and not in terms of black or white.

Also terms need to be defined as one man's full squat is another man's half squat. Speak in terms of knee angle. A full "ass to grass" squat is like the holy grail....many talk about it but few have seen it. Most people lack the hip and ankle mobility to perform a ATG Squat with much weight without hurting their knees or lower back. In ATG your calves completely touch your hamstrings and you cannot sit down any further. As part of a warmup using light weight or no weight it serves a great purpose, but I wouldn't recommend it as a main exercise. Hitting depth, powerlifting depth, or parallel squat, whatever you want to call it is simply ensuring your thighs are parallel with the ground. Knee angle is approx 45-60 degrees . Upper calves touching the hamstrings. Crease of hip is parallel to top of knee. An inch makes a world of difference. Half squat...knee at 90 degrees. Quarter squats....knee at 135 degrees.

You can use all variations in your programming. Regular parallel or slightly under parallel for general strength development....speed half squats onto a box for power and explosiveness or even heavy singles or triples of a quarter squat or "pin squats" for nervous system stimulation. Again, it's about progression and development over the course of time.

Alan

What about pull ups as an upper body lift?

Yes. Upper body push should be complimented by upper body pull.

Alan

ttc wrote:

Lifting increases bone density. This prevents fractures & osteoporosis.

It does, but if one is running bone mineral density is not often an issue.

Alan do you ever think about coaching? Sorry if you already do and I missed it. You should coach and write a book about strength training. I wish you lived in H-town. Sorry for calling you Allan all this time.

Never coached.

Have a BS in Exercise Science....which is BS.

Used to work as a personal trainer.

Helped "coach" an age group sprinter for a few months some years ago. Advised her on weight lifting. She won nationals. That's about as close as I got to coaching in the running world.

Everything I write about is basic fundamentals of program design.

1. Perform a needs analysis.

2. Assess the athlete.

3. Create the program.

4. Reasses and update.

I'm not that special.

I would write an Ebook but I doubt it would be taken seriously as it's not groundbreaking, and I'm not some high speed coach. I'm just a dude with ideas and a moderate level of knowledge of both running and strength training.

Alan