Nick Willis calls TnF a 'complete joke'.

I don't see it for two reasons: 1) the statistical correlation is not there, and 2) the performances haven't been linked to EPO. When you look at the times of the '90s, and who set them, the next logical conclusion is that only about 4 or 5 runners took EPO, from only two East African countries. Contrast that to cycling, where 100s of cyclists from every country, except East Africa, were implicated.If EPO were so powerful for running, we wouldn't see one or two countries dominating. We didn't see it in cycling.

TLW wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Basis?

EPO is released and you have almost a minute drop in the 10k world record during the 90s. The 5k WR fell 20 seconds during this period.

20 years later people are barely close to regularly running the times they did in the 90s.

Also watch some races from the 90s and see how insane they were, whole packs of guys going berserk from the start.

Additionally, look at other endurance sports. Cycling was entertaining to watch but an absolute joke with EPO. Did you ever watch the TdF in the 90s?

I know from your previous posts you don't believe in EPO, drug usage or whatever but I cannot really grasp how you don't see the connection - EPO released early 90s, insane races on a consistent basis, WRs are crushed over and over, EPO is obviously the reason here.

aduck2022 wrote:

roger..was preachin

well this peptide def. in top few in tennis

look when got better,fits timeline

and fact aging sowell

If I send you $20 will you promise never to post here again?

I'm serious. His name is Roger Federer.

Or why there was no burst in American middle and long distance records during that time. Going to thr other poster's point, since his demarcation line of the bio passport, there have been excellent times run at 800m, 1500m, 5000m and of course the half marathon and marathon.

To late

seb coe here :

" i dont sell out for any price but doping is a-okay_"

but sure i will take the 20 dollars anyway .

by the way did i offend the **** fanboy

that maybe your impression that Roger is not so sqeaky clean after all.

look at novak for prototype of how roger done it , but he just went gluten free

after all and then got better.

Again enough rubbish .

no americans as just no talent at that time , ahd given up ghost

due to seeing the utter dominance coming from east africa.

a false dominance based on free for all dopoing .

jesus h christ , talent then doping . duh. not other way around .walk before run

once and for all ,beyond obvious at this stage .

bekele was using Micera ,the best form of epo by far

and could use without strain until summer 2008 ,when the dip came#

and had to switch to epo , and duck and dive like all others .

question why no more cross countries , no more utter dominace .

MICERA was amazing stuff ,ask webb ask wariner ,exact same.

not same after 2008 ,uh why . like that qatari steeplechaser and haile at 30

ask ramzi before got sold out .

Question how did ethiopians and americans on CERA know that

the they would be tested for it from summer 2008

and by well off it , i mean months before then .

ASK coe .

ASK why did they not retest samples before 2008 LIKE IOC

then down goes big names mentioned above .

Bekele was there for the taking ,

ramzi caught but no we wont test is worlds 2005 samples

he couldnt of been on it then as not even on market .

ask your pharmacist in switzerland that ......

why no german article on this ........ze truth .

Les wrote:

Because PEDs like testosterone and others have a much greater effect on female athletes than male athletes because they do not have as much naturally as men. In the old Soviet days of state-sponsored drugging there were far and away more superior female athletes because of drugging than male. Same with the East Germans. It was the females who really benefited the most.

You've just repeated yourself. I asked for proof not to restate what you already said. More doped up females than males is not proof. That only means that more females doped than males.

Augusto E. Perez wrote:

Or why there was no burst in American middle and long distance records during that time. Going to thr other poster's point, since his demarcation line of the bio passport, there have been excellent times run at 800m, 1500m, 5000m and of course the half marathon and marathon.

If a mediocre American takes EPO it doesn't make him world class.

There have been excellent times but no World Records - which is my point.

The marathon and half marathon were only run by athletes well after their prime years in the 90s. Not the case anymore.

What world records do you guys think are clean? I'm generally curious.

rekrunner wrote:

If EPO were so powerful for running, we wouldn't see one or two countries dominating. We didn't see it in cycling.

You cannot take a mediocre distance runner from America/Europe/whatever and put them on EPO and have them set world records.

It doesn't work that way. You still need unreal talent, which there are a one or two countries that consistently produce that.

You don't take a 13:30 American guy and dope him and he runs 12:37 for a 5k.

What world records do you think are clean?

Do you think running was free of EPO abuse in the 90s?

none of this makes the slightest bit of sense.

in 2012 we saw the fastest 5000m race ever, and none of those guys even won OG that year .. and nor did it include Kipchoge, who earlier that year beat Farah Indoors. And that Paris 2012 race clearly showed at least 2 guys, prolly more, who could've run substantially faster had the pacing been better. You don't think Bekele, Geb or Komen could run, in their prime with optimal conditions, 5-10 seconds faster than a very young Hagos Geb?

This is completely irrational.

Why on earth do you think it wouldn't have been widespread before the 90's? It's not like they were catching all the E. European druggies, so why would anyone else NOT dope?

I am talking about EPO use.

EPO did not exist pre 90s.

People doped before, people dope now. Doping has not stopped. Take a look at NOP.

Yea we've seen fast times, not on a consistent basis or dramatic, almost insane drops in times like the 90s.

The WR 10k dropping nearly 1 minute and the 5k dropping 20 seconds.

I ask once again, what world records do you think are clean?

If the 1500m/5k/10k WR still stand in 2025 what would you say? They trained harder in the 90s?

Yea we still see an insane time here and there. Not consistently. You guys talking about a race or two from 08 or 2012. That's not consistent.

TL,DR version: People doped in the 90s rampantly. WRs dropped, insane times run all the time. Test introduced, athletes still dope but not rampantly, occasionally a fast time is run. WR from 15+ years still stand.

again a good journo need ask about micera coverup by iaaf

another can of worms

ramzi stayed quiet as got to keep worlds

epo was used by afew in late 80's and that event being 400m before longer

was it not 10k in paris and

witin peduseoftime

Completely irrational.

Don't you think that if doping dropped the times down by that amount, that decrease would also level out? It wouldn't make sense that the WR drops another 20 seconds unless they got a new drug. You're suggesting athletes using the same drug would simply keep hammering away and lowering the WR by a minute every few years? that doesn't make sense at all. The fact that the lowering of the WR leveled off doesn't mean athletes stopped doping.

That's all assuming those WRs you're talking about are a function of doping.

Kiprop ran within a whisker of el G's 1500m in 2015

The fastest 5000m ever was in 2012.

The marathon times have dropped incredibly.

Some would say it's all about the moneys. The money went to the roads, and the top athletes moved to the roads. Kipchoge was the indoor WC 3000m in 2012, and moved almost simultaneously to the roads.

"insane times run all the time" in the 90's? Don't be silly.

One of the reasons for that shift though was the nature of the athletes .. Komen and el G were only ever going to win if they went hard, early. With either of those guys in a race, it would likely be a fast race.

These days it's all kickers ... so the jog and see who's gunna chase Mo down the home straight.

I suspect the 3000m, 5000m and 10 000m are all clean.

Think of it another way .. Rupp's fastest 5000m ever is 12:58 .. and he runs WAY more 5000m than he does 10 000m. And his 10k time is awesome, and he clearly had some left in the tank. Do you really think Rupp's gunna run under 1/sec per lap of the world's fastest 10 000m ever? I'd be surprised.

Look at some of the American guys who are right around 13m in the 5, and tell me you really don't think a slew of top E. Africans wouldn't be 10 seconds faster, and the very top of those guys wouldn't be 20 seconds faster? Ben True's a good runner, but I'd be highly surprised if there weren't athletes capable of beating him by 200m over 5000m.

The mens 3,000 record, Daniel Komen...is not to be forgotten.. It's crazy fast.

So as powerful as EPO is, it is still secondary to natural talent and training. Carry this further, and no fact or evidence stops us from concluding that the times are purely due to talent, and training, and EPO was ineffective. Talent and training are necessary, but EPO may or may not be a factor.Don't compare the rest of the West to East Africans, but compare them to their forefathers from the pre-EPO 80's.You said EPO was the most powerful endurance drug ever made.Yet in the 90's where it's use was undetectable (outside of hematocrit measurements), and abuse was maximal, America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Russia, and every nation that is not Kenya and Ethiopia, have not significantly improved in any endurance event.What shall we conclude:- America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Russia, and every nation that is not Kenya and Ethiopia did not take EPO in the 90's- All of these nations were taking EPO, but in fact, EPO is ineffective for runningIf EPO is the most powerful endurance drug ever known to man, and it was universally unavailable and undetectable in the 90's, why do we only see East African (and one Moroccan) success?For the men, I think most world records are clean.For the women, I only have some doubts in "strength" events.

TLW wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

If EPO were so powerful for running, we wouldn't see one or two countries dominating. We didn't see it in cycling.

You cannot take a mediocre distance runner from America/Europe/whatever and put them on EPO and have them set world records.

It doesn't work that way. You still need unreal talent, which there are a one or two countries that consistently produce that.

You don't take a 13:30 American guy and dope him and he runs 12:37 for a 5k.

What world records do you think are clean?

Do you think running was free of EPO abuse in the 90s?

rekrunner wrote:

If EPO were so powerful for running, we wouldn't see one or two countries dominating. We didn't see it in cycling.

[

]

That's right. Three countries dominated.

You're assuming runners in America, Europe, etc., were not taking EPO in the 80s. It was available then though it would become more so later on. There were westerners using it prior to 1990 so there would be no reason to think you'd see drug inspired improvements in the 90s, especially since the idea of "less is more" in terms of training became so popular then.

I didn't pick the timeframe. This "EPO era" seems to slide forwards and backwards to suit the argument.Recall I'm only asking the basis for the claim that EPO is the most powerful endurance performance enhancing drug.Feel free to show me the '80s performances in America, Europe, Oceania that demonstrate this power.Who was the American to beat Mark Nenow's 1986 27:20 10K record? Meb, in 2001, only after EPO was detectable.Which pre-2000 American 5000m performance beats Matt Centrowitz (Sr.) 1982 performance of 13:12.91, thanks to EPO? Only three: Salazar (1982), Maree (1985), and Kennedy (1996)Which American could beat Bill Rodgers (1979) in the marathon between 1984 and 2010? Only one: Bob Kempainen in 1994.Conclusions? America was EPO-free in the undetectable EPO-era?

HRE wrote:

You're assuming runners in America, Europe, etc., were not taking EPO in the 80s. It was available then though it would become more so later on. There were westerners using it prior to 1990 so there would be no reason to think you'd see drug inspired improvements in the 90s, especially since the idea of "less is more" in terms of training became so popular then.