With 5 world titles and a WR, is Mo Farah the GOAT (Greatest of all-time)? We say yes...

rojo wrote:

PS. One last thing. I know Haile never did the 5k/10k double at the Olympics but does anyone really think he wouldnt have beaten venuste niyongabo in 1996? Please.

Oh you said "wouldnt".

I thought I saw "would" at first.

Niyongabo opened up a big lead to start the last lap but held on for dear life.

He would not have gotten away from Haile G.

Atlanta had a very hard track.

After running two 10,000m races Geb was concerned about his achilles and didn't want to push through the three additional rounds of 5000m races.

The double is so much easier now with a final only 10,000 and just two rounds of the 5,000.

It's people like you that make me hate the sporttime >>>>> 'awards/medals' always.

The head to head comparison of Geb, Bekele, and Farah can't really be used to separate them. You said it in the conversation, this is a comparison between eras. Bekele has Geb beat 7-0, but I don' think that would have happened while Geb was in the prime of his career. That only shows that Bekele, at his best, was better than a Geb as a declining track runner who then moved to the marathon. DOn't get me wrong, Geb was still an outstanding runner at that time, but those head-to-head meetings are often decided by finishing speed. Can we really compare the finishing speed of a marathoner who moved away from the track with a 12:37 guy?

The Farah-Bekele comparison has similar issues, but they are different in that the older Beleke beat the younger Farah. Mo was good when he was young, but not to the level he is. Is is not suspicious to anyone else that he plateaued in his mid 20s only to break through later? There's no way to tell, because Nick Willis is running his fastest 15s and miles over 30, and he's a stand-up guy that I believe is trustworthy.

That's beside the point, but back on topic, I still think Beleke needs to do something at the marathon to be the GOAT. Geb has had success at all distances, and Bekele would need to replicate that to surpass him.

Who is ahead of Mo:

1. Kenenisa Bekele - WR that won't be touched soon

2. Haile - very close to KB's WR's, also increasingly range and stellar Marathons

3. Bikila and Cierpinski - winning back to back OG in the Marathon is insane

4. Zatopek - only runner to pull off the triple

Farah is at his peak right now, he isn't gonna get much better if any at all. I doubt he gets another gold medal in Rio let alone medal at all. No one cares about indoor records.

Here are the differences between Geb and Bekele as they both won the same amount of 10,000m championships (6 Gold medals) and both got the WR in the 5 and the 10.

Bekele had the XC success while Geb broke the marathon world record twice.

People here seem to weigh the XC higher because they were championships.

But many good runners skip XC.

The marathon is more competitive as a whole, but the top runners do not often race each other. But getting the world record means that you did better then anyone else ever on their best day.

The other pros for Geb is the quantity of world records and the matter in which he smashed them.

Took the 5000 from 12:55 to 12:44 in one race (best performance ever) but over all dropped the record from 12:58 to 12:39.

Took the 10000 from 26:51 to 26:43 in one race and from 26:51 down to 26:22 overall.

First ever under 2:04 for the marathon.

26 world record or world bests in total.

Range - He has an indoor 1500m World Title, 3000m indoor title, 5000m records, 10,000m records and titles, half marathon record and marathon record.

Bekele does have the two 5000m Golds (again with fewer rounds to run)

Geb had longevity.

Over 20 straight years he ran some kind of world class performance from the 1993 WC Gold (had a 27:30 PR that year) to running 27:20 in 2012 along with a 2:08 marathon in 2012 and a 61:09 half marathon in 2013 keeping up with Bekele and Farah at the age of 40.

Bekele and Farah's world class careers are not done, so they have time to show something else to surpass the Emperor.

Imo to be considered GOAT three things come in mind (in random order):

run fast

win races,

dominate competition (the X-factor)

Gebrselassie and Bekele are both way faster than Farah. This even brings in other contenders like Tergat and Sihine. Not just WR, but the Ethiopians still are amongst the leaders on the all-time lists.

All three won major races, the number are still in favor for Gebrselassie on track and roads and Bekele on track and xc (I think Bekele's dominance contributed a lot to the decline of xc). Winning (a double) in Beijing and Rio would close a big part of the gap for Farah.

Winning races is something that gives a lot of comments to Farah. He races in a period of time where big talents head straight to the marathon, but for most people he ducks competition. He didn't double last summer with Commonwealth Games and Europeans (as the best runner in the world at the moment), where his compatriot (and mom) Jo Pavey (40y old) did. And the athletes he beats aren't superstars, maybe they are on the boards (Rupp), but not with major accomplishments (WXC, WMM-wins, superfast times).

As someone mentioned before, Bekele raced the Diamond or Golden League, had a long winning streak in the 10,000m, dominated xc and was almost a decade virtually unbeatable and if so by athletes that are considered top of the bill (Kipchoge '03, El Guerrouj in '04).

Haile has been around since 1993, won a lot of races on the track, road, marathons. Even as an 'old' man, he was still a factor on the 10,000m track races. In his time and age (his times are still above standard, compared to Viren's times that are 'slow' nowadays), he was beating superstars on their won (5x wxc Tergat, wr holder Hissou).

That last point makes me think that Bekele may be the best but Gebrselassie is for me the GOAT.

Of course not. Most important to remember is that Mo has really had only three years of dominance: 2011-13. That's not enough of a record to call anyone the GOAT, championship golds or no championship golds.

Bekele's and Geb's records of longevity at the top alone put them ahead. Geb's time at the absolute top spans at least eight years -- from WC gold in 1993 to Olympic gold in 2000 -- and he was 6th in the Oly 10K as recently as 2008 (in a time Mo has only surpassed once, as far as I can tell) That's an incredible 16 years as as one of the very best distance runners in the world).

Bekele was the (more or less) undisputed top dog from at least 2003 through 2008. Their clash -- and the passing of the torch as the preeminent track distance runner of that time -- in the 2003 WC 10,000 (won by Bekele in 26:49, after a second 5K of around 13 flat, and final 400s of 55 for Bekele and 56 for Geb) was one of the greatest distance races of all time in my book. Mo has no similar signature victory over an opponent of such historic excellence at or close to the height of his powers (that's not his fault, of course....).

And let's not glibly dismiss everyone before Geb. I don't think Lasse Viren makes the cut because he did almost nothing outside his two big Olympic years -- but remember also that, until the 1980's, there WERE no world championships, and runners before that time should not be penalized for that lack. Different eras and different competition (no East Africans, for example) but any discussion of GOAT for distance runners that does not at least consider Paavo Nurmi and Emil Zatopek is not a serious discussion.

And please don't say you can simply compare times from one era to the other -- I have one of my father's pairs of spikes from the 1940's, and I did my high school training (and some racing) on a cinder track in the 1970's, The difference in equipment, training methods, etc (rabbits,altitude training, specialized diets, pharmaceuticals -- you name it!) makes time-based comparisons between eras inappropriate. Mo, Geb, and Kenenisa shared similar enough conditions to consider times in comparing their "greatness".

Comparisons with other era should focus on things like honors, records set (and perhaps the longevity of those records), and won-loss records.

Based on those criteria, Zatopek certainly deserves at least some discussion -- 4 Oly gold (including the only ever same-year 5K/10K/marathon win), one silver, multiple European championships as well when that meant something, undefeated over 10K for something like six straight years, multiple world records at distances from 5000 to (I think) the marathon (I know for certain that he set a one-hour record).

Mo as GOAT? Maybe he'll get there, but he's not close yet.

If you guys are trying to have an honest debate you need to lay out some parameters and guidelines.

Did they win?

Did they win over a long period of time?

Did they run fast?

Record/times over the surfaces - road, track, country

Now two important questions need consideration.

Did they race against the Africans?

How do their times hold up on current all time lists?

Do Nurmi, Viren, Coe, Snell, Elliot, Ryun, Zátopek belong in the discussion? Zátopek was amazing and had a ridiculous career and did something that no one may ever do. But go ask Cam Levins to time trial a 14:06, 29:17 and 2:23 over 10 days and he probably could do it. That's how the old guys times hold up. Sure they broke barriers but seriously the greatest of all time has to be on a really short list.

EL G

Geb

Tergat

Bekele

There are probably some outliers who were ridiculous at one thing and maybe dropped a sick time here or there in another event but these guys had some range, they won, they won on varying surfaces.

The first guy to go would be Tergat. Bekele trumps him on the grass/track and road. Geb trumps him on the roads and track.

I asked John Kellogg about the 9600 jog at 7 minute pace and then an all out kick between Michael Johnson and Mo Farah.

He tried to refurse to answer it as it would never happen. He thinks in a race like that Farah could close in about 51 (he closed in 50.89 last year in a 14:10 race) and isn't sure Johnson could do that. He think Johnson's legs would be so tight after 24 laps he'd probably pull a muscle if he tried to spring and would have a hard time to get started.

In general in kicking distance races, Kellogg says it doesn't come down to who is the fastest 400 guy. It comes down to who has the most speed in reserve and normally that is the guy who is the fastest miler.

We should have let you write the article. I didn't give Geb's bronze and silver's any credit but they mean something. He was medalling on the track for 10 straight years.

He was getting gold for 7 straight years 1993-2000. Bekele got golds for 6 straight years on the track.

Farah needs to go through 2017 for 6 straight years. If you start your reign of dominance the year before the Olympics or during the Olympics it's easier to claim GOAT status as people put so much stock in the Olympics. Farah right now is the best distance running the world the last 3 years. Jon was projecting out if he does that for 5 years. And the fact doubling is easier now distorts the picture.

I'm glad the Haile argument can still be made. Haile was best on track for 7 years, medalled 10 straight, and then went and broke the WR in the marathon.

To be fair to Jon, much of Jon's GOAT argument was based on IF Farah wins double golds this year and picks up another Olympic gold. A lot of the non GOAT arguments weren't projecting ahead. So Jon looks like the fall guy.

Another issue is that most of the talent really has gone to the road, except in America. The money is on the roads. If Bekele was after money, I wonder if wishes he had gone about 4 years earlier.

Most of the track dudes now are pretty green. I mean Rupp is one of the most seasoned distance runners on the track. WOW!

If Farah doesn't win the double it would probably be one of the bigger upsets in recent memory. He needs it to even be considered to be be on the tail end of the discussion.

Ok so I think we have a majority opinion on Mo.

If Mo came to you and said he wants to shoot for GOAT what would you say?

Of course the double double in the next 2 yrs would be essential, but clearly thats irrelevant to the peanut gallery.

Perhaps "Mo, you need to do 2 things

1. Go for track and road WR's esp. at major distances.

2. concentrate on the (more competitive) road races. "

- WR's at 3K/5K/10K/HM. Sub 2:05

- Multiple major road victories.

- World XC title or two

- Still winning majors at 40.

Then would he get GOAT?

...and actually Mo has more charisma that Haile or Geb. That should also factor in to GOAT. Interviews well. He has done a decent job popularizing the sport with all the Mobot stuff.

Not saying he's close in actual talent, but he does get points for this.

Haile Fan wrote:

Bekele's ability to double-back and beat a group of FRESH Kenyans the next day in multiple WXC's was really, really impressive. Still surprised he was able to do it multiple times (2 or 3?).

Try 5 times!

Greatest all time at what? At running? Are you out of your mind?

this is an intriguing thread and discussion. My personal take however is that Mo has to break the 5k/10k world records and win the 5k/10k in 2015/2016/2017 global championships. Mo has the weakness to his resume of running in a weaker era. The talent goes to the marathon for the money, not the track. So you're running against Kenya/Ethiopia's B Squads. While their A guys are running sub 2:04 marathons and getting 6 figure paydays.

The 5 greatest distance runners in history in my opinion:

1- Haile, gets the nod over Bekele due to his longevity and marathon success

2- Bekele, his long term injury and recent struggles have hurt his legacy

3- Seb Coe 2 olympic gold, 2 olympic silver (before world championship era)

4- Hicham 2 olympic gold 1 olympic silver, has the 3k/5k range but lacks Seb Coe's 800m speed and accolades (1:47 800m pr to Coe's 1:41)

5- Lasse Viren only man in history to win 5k/10k double gold in back to back olympics, then in 1976 he jumped in the marathon last second and took 5th place in his first ever marathon (4th if you remove the doper Cierpinski)

Since when did a silly squabble in your office become headline news?

This is an argument precisely NO ONE else is having

Even by letsrun standards this is lame

I think he can skip the XC. Obviously if he wins a ton of doubles and drops times he is in the hunt. But...

He needs to race all comers.

I would love to see him do something we don't see very often. His Monaco 1500 was great. But a 10k Marathon Olympic double would be exciting.

I think if he dropped a ridiculous time and got a victory at a marathon major and then came back to the track for a 10k that would be something we rarely see. We wont though because of the way the next 3 years play out with WC, OLY, WC

I actually think if Kipsang, Kimetto and all those other guys could be lured back to the track for a 10000 that would be a huge coup for the sport

Its fun to think about it.