Um, radcliffe and rupp are dopers by any definition. Certainly they cheat with TUEs, but also with illegals such as epo and steroids.
Um, radcliffe and rupp are dopers by any definition. Certainly they cheat with TUEs, but also with illegals such as epo and steroids.
grasping at something wrote:
Yeah that's got to be one of the dumbest litmus tests for doping, not having ran the 800. On the other hand, it must be that if he went and jogged an official slow 800 then that would clear things up for you.
I don't think it's a dumb thing to point out at all.
Top milers from Bannister, Elliott, Snell, Walker, Scott, Ovett, etc, etc, all ran 800m, if just to use as a sharpener before a champs. EL G could easily have run a few low key 800s in Morocco or some of the 2nd tier European meets against 2nd tier athletes, but never did. Not once in 11 years. For an elite miler this is almost unheard of, and somewhat suspicious.
This suspicion is heightened all the more when all this noise was made from inside Morocco over a supposed 1:42.7 tt.
I'm sorry, but if he could run that in training, which I don't believe he ever did (was once asked in an interview what he could run for 800 and he said, 1:44!?....so that straight away casts doubt on a 1:42 tt), then he would surely have run them frequently with confidence on the circuit, if just rarely.
I think the previous poster who brought up his lack of 800s had a valid point. I don't think he ran them because he would probably not have run much faster than 1:45/46. Just like Lagat, who despite several runs against good opposition never broke 1:46 over 800.
What I wrote down was not hard evidence, just suspicious stuff. If you think El G was clean then you also may think the entire Tour de France peleton was clean and Lance was framed.
What you can't deny is the rampant doping problem in Morocco. With many positives including Ramzi's at the 2008 Olympics, recently Laalou, Goumri, Selsouli...(the list goes on and on) has put a giant question mark on all of their track athletes. If these athletes worshipped El G and wanted to be like him and he was clean, the top Moroccans would not all be cheating to be top athletes. The circumstantial evidence is highly stacked against El G.
Salazar's quote from 1999 leads me to believe he thinks El G was dirty
How about testing Taoufik Makhloufi? Everybody here is convinced he doped and he's not retired.
Red Arrows wrote:
I don't think it's a dumb thing to point out at all.
Top milers from Bannister, Elliott, Snell, Walker, Scott, Ovett, etc, etc, all ran 800m, if just to use as a sharpener before a champs. EL G could easily have run a few low key 800s in Morocco or some of the 2nd tier European meets against 2nd tier athletes, but never did. Not once in 11 years. For an elite miler this is almost unheard of, and somewhat suspicious.
This suspicion is heightened all the more when all this noise was made from inside Morocco over a supposed 1:42.7 tt.
I'm sorry, but if he could run that in training, which I don't believe he ever did (was once asked in an interview what he could run for 800 and he said, 1:44!?....so that straight away casts doubt on a 1:42 tt), then he would surely have run them frequently with confidence on the circuit, if just rarely.
I think the previous poster who brought up his lack of 800s had a valid point. I don't think he ran them because he would probably not have run much faster than 1:45/46. Just like Lagat, who despite several runs against good opposition never broke 1:46 over 800.
That's not suspicious at all. All or most of those guys that you mentioned are speed-based milers. El G was not a speed-based miler. That's why he ran 2000s, 3000s, and 5000s. How many of those events did those guys run?
Also, El G was a serious competitor who wanted to always win. He didn't want to compete in any event with a high risk of losing. And so what if he would have only run 1:45 or so? Are we saying that not only is running fast a sign of doping, but so is running slow? So EVERYONE is a doper because they either run slow or fast?
jay kay wrote:
Are we saying that not only is running fast a sign of doping, but so is running slow? So EVERYONE is a doper because they either run slow or fast?
Answer to first question is yes. Its the new hotness of doping suspicion based on not matching running calculator times on races you hypothetically have yet to run too slow.
Second question is of course no for any given individual, it depends on your nationalistic fervor for or against.
yep!!! wrote:
lance was good at passing drug tests also..
I suggest you do a bit more research, bud.
Major questions have yet to be asked: what are the chances el Guerrouj's urine samples go on Ebay?
Mak Daddy Doper wrote:
How about testing Taoufik Makhloufi? Everybody here is convinced he doped and he's not retired.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's clean. I don't know this, but I don't see why he's so highly suspect.
Lance and El G are friends. Surely they traded doping secrets at one point or another.
Makhloufi is highly suspect because:
1. he's from Algeria which has a history of doping in distance events
2. he was not a favorite to win the Olympics, very few knew him and then he killed everybody and hasn't done anything since
3. the way he ran the Olympic final suggests he's a doper as he sprinted hard from at least 400m out, all the guys who went with him or near him absolutely died except the Moroccan Iguider who took 3rd, and Leo Manzano came from WAYYYY back to grab the silver, partly because everyone died trying to hold Makhloufi's sprint.
This is significant because at the Olympic level you can't just decide to drop a field like that, because someone will sit on you and out kick you. He was on another level that day when compared to the other best runners in the world and he's not considered a super talent like Rudisha or Asbel Kiprop. Even Asbel can't just decide to drop a field in a 1500.
That said though, wouldn't you say that he was going off a somewhat slow race and just had an undiscovered, extremely mean kick? We don't really know how good he is because he has barely every competed. Perhaps the Moroccans just had him in stow.
Anyways, I wouldn't call a
Colorado miler wrote:
This is significant because at the Olympic level you can't just decide to drop a field like that, because someone will sit on you and out kick you. He was on another level that day when compared to the other best runners in the world and he's not considered a super talent like Rudisha or Asbel Kiprop. Even Asbel can't just decide to drop a field in a 1500.
The current crop of 1500m runners is very weak. Kiprop and Kiplagat are the only semi-regular sub 3:30 guys. Everyone else has a hard time breaking 3:32. Therefore, you CAN just decide to drop a field like that. Just like Farah does in the 5000m and 10000m.
And yes, Kiprop could do it to on the right day. When he ran 3:27 this year, how many other people ran under 3:30? How many ran sub 3:32?
Colorado miler wrote:
Makhloufi is highly suspect because:
1. he's from Algeria which has a history of doping in distance events
2. he was not a favorite to win the Olympics, very few knew him and then he killed everybody and hasn't done anything since
3. the way he ran the Olympic final suggests he's a doper as he sprinted hard from at least 400m out, all the guys who went with him or near him absolutely died except the Moroccan Iguider who took 3rd, and Leo Manzano came from WAYYYY back to grab the silver, partly because everyone died trying to hold Makhloufi's sprint.
1. They do? I don't know every doper ever, but I can't think of any from Algeria, as opposed to Moroccans which do have that reputation (Ramzi, Lalou, Mourhit, and a couple marathon runners).
2. He WAS the favorite, once you take out Kiprop, Kiplagat, Chepseba, and Nick Willis, who all were either hurt or had terrible races in the final. As a result, spots 1-6 were all relative unknowns, and predictably the only 3:30 / 1:43 man left dominated it. The field was very weak compared to a field to a field like 2007 where there were several 3:2x guys with great speed. The splits were completely unremarkable when compared to splits like El Guerrouj ran - 1:51 final 800 vs. 1:46 for El G, lagat, and Silva. Leo matched the final lap split.
3. Don't know what his race tactics have to do with doping. Guys like Gebremedhin predictably died hard because he they aren't 3:30 / 1:43 guys. Is 3:30 / 1:43 enough to raise suspicion of doping?
Makhloufi is highly suspect because he is doping.
Just like ElG and Coe did.
My buddy dated a woman who worked at IAAF. She told him that the IAAF basically knew he was doing drugs and after 2004 they told him enough, he had to retire. I guess everybody would lose had he been busted.
Another buddy of mine, US Olympian in a distance event, tried to explain to me when someone is racing all out but doesn't look tired, that's when you know they are doping.
Here say but true wrote:
Another buddy of mine, US Olympian in a distance event, tried to explain to me when someone is racing all out but doesn't look tired, that's when you know they are doping.
Your buddy is an idiot. Some people actually know how to hold on to their form. Tell your buddy he needs to work on his core.
2. Silas Kiplagat only had a 'terrible' race in the final because he went with Makhloufi, he finished 7th because he tied up and died in the last 100m. And its way easier to follow people and close fast than it is to do it from the front, so Leo's last lap being the same as Makh's does't say much, and Leo negative split it while Makh may have positive split it which would be a huge red flag as far as doping goes…oh crap you won't get that point either, better explain.
As you sprint all out with 400m-600m to go in a 1500, you produce a bunch of lactate at exponential rates. This is why the best 400m runners positive split 400m races. Well your already producing lactate in a 1500m before the last lap, then you go all out. This will cause a reduction in pace exponentially when you hit your threshold. This is what basically the entire Olympic field experienced in 2012. In previous years when there was no test for EPO and no bio passport it was common to see races like the 2012 final, with El G sprinting from 600m out and running 1:46 or whatever.
ososk wrote:
Here say but true wrote:Another buddy of mine, US Olympian in a distance event, tried to explain to me when someone is racing all out but doesn't look tired, that's when you know they are doping.
Your buddy is an idiot. Some people actually know how to hold on to their form. Tell your buddy he needs to work on his core.
Form and strain from exhaustion are different things. Work on his core? What are you, 12?