Guess who is the first American 1500m runner with the "A"?

Loving are chances in the 1500m after reading this....

The only five athletes eligible for the 1500 are Matt Centrowitz, Leo Manzano, Lopez Lomong, Matt Elliott and Will Leer.

Sam Wrightington wrote:

WRONG!!

WRONG!!

WRONG!!

So you're saying that Torrance has no chance? If the team had to be picked today who else would you send?!?

If you were picking the team today your choices are either

A) Centro

B) Centro and Torrance

C) Centro, Torrance and Rupp

WRONG.

The only ones eligible to chase times are the top 4 finishers at nationals. That means that everyone else (see the list below) has to stand with their times from BEFORE nationals.

Remember RANK ORDER is the key here. Meaning as of today the team is Centro and Lomong is the Alternate

THESE FOUR ATHLETES CAN CHASE STANDARDS UNTIL JULY 20

1 Matthew Centrowitz Nike 3:45.17 B can chase the A

2 Leonel Manzano Unattached 3:45.35 NQ can chase. Needs an A to be guaranteed. Can get in with a B if Centro gets the A

3 Lopez Lomong Nike 3:45.69 Has the B. Can chase. A is guaranteed. Two ways to make it with a B

4 Matthew Elliott Brooks 3:45.85 NQ. Can chase. Multiple ways to get in as regular entrant or the alternate.

THESE ATHLETES CANNOT CHASE STANDARD. MUST STAND ON THEIR BEST TIMES BEFORE NATIONALS

5 William Leer Nike 3:45.95 Has the B.Cannot chase times. Can be the alternate if two or more ahead of him(including Lomong) gets the A.

6 Mac Fleet Oregon 3:46.06 DONE. Cannot chase. Cannot go.

7 David Torrence Nike 3:46.26 DONE. Cannot chase. Cannot go.

8 Miles Batty Asics 3:46.31 DONE. Cannot chase. Cannot go

9 Russell Brown Nike 3:46.94 HAs the B. Cannot chase. Cannot jump ahead of Leer.

10 Benjamin Blankenship Nike 3:46.95

11 Craig Miller New Balance 3:48.43

12 Andrew Wheating Nike / Oregon TC 4:01.55

A 3:35.00 B 3:37.00

3:34.78i Galen Rupp (Nik) Terrier Cl 01/26 DID NOT RUN THE 1500 AT NATIONALS HAS NO RANK FINISH, CANNOT RUN THE 1500

3:36.07 Nick Symmonds (Nik) Oxy HP Cl 05/17 DID NOT RUN THE 1500 AT NATIONALS HAS NO RANK FINISH CANNOT RUN THE 1500

3:36.34 Evan Jager (Nik) Oxy HP Cl 05/17 DID NOT RUN THE 1500 AT NATIONALS HAS NO RANK FINISH CANNOT RUN THE 1500

3:36.52i Lopez Lomong (Nik) Millrose G 02/16

3:36.65i Matthew Centrowitz (Nik) Millrose G 02/16

3:36.67 Will Leer (Nik) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:36.79 Russell Brown (OTC) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:37.03 Andrew Wheating (Nik) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:37.04 Leo Manzano (unat) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:37.47 Garrett Heath (Sauc) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

(10)

3:37.54 Jeff See (Sauc) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:37.97 Cory Leslie (unat) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:38.25 David Torrence (Nik) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:38.26 Liam Boylan-Pett (NJNY) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:38.34 Rob Finnerty (Wi) AMC III 06/15

3:38.48 Jack Bolas (NBal) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:38.79 -Riley Masters (Ok) Stanford Jordan Inv 04/28

3:38.85 Tony Jordanek (NeoTC) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:38.91 Brett Johnson (unat) Oxy HP Cl 05/17

3:38.95 Jordan McNamara (Nik) Eugene DL 0

USATF may, in its discretion, enter up to four (4) competitors in each individual event in the World Championships. Up to three (3) athletes in each event will be allowed to travel with the Team and compete at the World Championships subject to the following criteria. Please note additional athletes may be entered and travel with the team per the criteria below.

Automatic Qualification:

The top three (3) rank order finishers in each event at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships will automatically select themselves to the USATF team for the World Championships (the “Team”), provided that (a) each has, by July 20, 2013, achieved the applicable IAAF “A” Standard, or (b) two of the three have, by July 20, 2013, achieved the applicable IAAF “A’ Standard and the third has, by that date, achieved the applicable IAAF “B Standard. If all three have, by July 20, 2013, achieved the IAAF“A”, the fourth ranked order finisher shall serve as the alternate, provided that he or she has, by that date, achieved at least the applicable IAAF “B” Standard. If only two of the first three have achieved the IAAF “A” Standard, and the other has achieved the IAAF “B” Standard, the fourth ranked order finisher shall serve as the alternate, provided that he or she has achieved the IAAF “A” Standard. If only two of the first three have, by July 20, 2013, achieved the IAAF “A” Standard, and the other has not, by that date, achieved the IAAF “A” or “B” Standard, the fourth ranked order finisher shall serve as a team member if he or she has, by that date, achieved the IAAF “A” or “B” Standard. In that case, the next ranked order finisher may be designated as the alternate provided he or she has met the applicable Standard.

A reigning World Champion who competes at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships receives an automatic wild card bye into the World Championships for the event in which he or she is reigning World Champion whether or not he or she has achieved the corresponding entry standard. These athletes are not required to compete in the same event in which they are reigning World Champions at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships in order to receive the wild card bye. In events in which a USATF athlete is the reigning World Champion, USATF may, in its discretion, and subject to the applicable rules and regulations (including these Selection Procedures), enter up to four (4) additional athletes in the World Championships, including up to three (3) additional athletes who will be allowed to travel and compete with the Team at the World Championships.

A 2012 Diamond League Winner who competes at the 2013 USA Outdoor Championships, for events where there is no reigning World Champion, will receive an automatic wild card bye into the World Championships for the event in which he or she is the 2012 Diamond League Champion whether or not he or she has achieved the corresponding entry standard. These athletes are not required to compete in the same event in which they are the Diamond League winner at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships in order to receive the wild card bye. In events in which a USATF athlete is the 2012 Diamond League winner and there is no reigning World Champion in that event, USATF may, in its discretion, and subject to the applicable rules and regulations (including these Selection Procedures), enter up to four (4) additional athletes in the World Championships, including up to three (3) additional athletes who will be allowed to travel and compete with the Team at the World Championships.

Other Qualification:

If any of the top four (4) rank order finishers has not achieved the applicable IAAF standard from the beginning of the applicable IAAF qualifying period through the completion of their respective events at the National Championships, but achieves the needed IAAF Standard on or before July 20, 2013, such athlete(s) must provide adequate evidence of his or her qualifying performance in order for that performance to result in qualification for the team. Results information must be received by USATF by said deadline at the following e-mail address:

If after July 20, 2013, there remain places on the USATF team or alternate positions not filled by athletes among the top four (4) rank order finishers, USATF may, in its discretion, in rank order of finish, enter athletes and/or designate athletes as alternates based on their having achieved the applicable IAAF Standard at or prior to the National Championships.

Subject to the foregoing criteria, in any event(s) in which there are no “A” Standard qualifiers, USATF will enter no more than two (2) athletes who have achieved the “B” standard in that event during the applicable qualifying period (through July 20, 2013, for the top four (4) finishers at the Championships and through the conclusion of the athletes’ respective events at the National Championships for others). In that situation, only one (1) “B” Standard qualified athlete will be allowed to travel and compete with the team and an additional “B” Standard qualifier may serve as an alternate.

If no athletes achieve at least the IAAF “B” standard in a given event during the qualifying period, USATF will enter no athletes in that event, unless an athlete is exempt from qualifying because he or she is the reigning World Champion or Diamond League Winner.

In each event, the rank order of the finish at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships shall determine whether an athlete competes or is designated an alternate at the World Championships.

Correction 5 William Leer Nike 3:45.95 Has the B. Cannot chase times. Can be the alternate if 2 or 3 ahead of him gets the A, but no one has a B

Something else to remember here. The alternate can only be a B qualifier if the team consists of a single B. If a team sends 2 or 3 athletes then at least two of them have to be A qualifiers, therefore the alternate has to be an A qualifier. A B qualifier cannot take the place of an A qualifier.

You guys over think this.

We take up to 3 guys with the A standard in order of place at nationals (ignore the rules stating who can chase and who can't, we've broken that too many times).

If we don't have 3 A's we'll take up to 1 B to fill the field.*

*If the winner has only the B (like Centro) he supersedes one of the A standards behind him.

Need a little help here as I sit working at my desk.....

When was the first date you could run a qualifying time for the Worlds this Summer?

I saw that July 20th is the deadline to run the A or B standard - I did not see the start date.

At least this is a discussion today - it gives athletes an opportunity to run a qualifying time.

thx

js

Why can't the alternate be a B qualifier if he may potentially replace a B qualifier?

Send A1, A2, B1, B2

B1 gets hurt. B2 steps in. They line up A1, A2, B2.

Of course if A1 or A2 gets hurt you're screwed.

Most practical to go with A1, A2, B1, A3 if that's the order they finished USATF.

Then A3 can step in for anyone.

Let's say by Jul 20 the USATF results by place are as follows:

B1, NQ, A1, NQ, B1, B2, A2, NQ, A3

Then your team would be B1, A1, A2 with the alternate of A3 over he higher placing B2.

If you had no A3 can you utilize a B2?

Unless they stuck to their top 4 rule where the team would just be B1, A1.

That one scenario would give you a team of Centro, Lomong and Torrence on the team with Brown as the alternate (assumes Lomong and Brown get the A and no one else runs any faster) if they go further than 4 deep.

Most likely team:

Centro, Manzano and Lomong with Leer as the alternate unless Elliott can get a B standard.

The only piece that's confusing is that USATF arbitrarily decided to say that only the top four can chase standards. If they wanted to make it simple to understand and simple for fans they would simply send the top three qualifiers with the necessary standards (i.e., AAA or AAB). And if there aren't three USA Championship finalists with the standard but there are non-finalists who get it, the fastest non-finalist with the standard should go.

If travel planning (or expense) is the reason they don't allow more chasers, just tell chasers that they are responsible for their own travel if they didn't finish in the top 4.

Simple, systematic rules. Maximum access for deserving athletes. No back-room negotiations.

Jim, the window started October 1, 2012.

Essentially the times had to be run this year since no one races Oct - Dec.

Indoor times count including times recorded en route to a mile.

That is why Rupp was actually the first to get the A standard en route to his 3:50 mile indoors this year.

Jim Spivey, wrote:

Need a little help here as I sit working at my desk.....

When was the first date you could run a qualifying time for the Worlds this Summer?

I saw that July 20th is the deadline to run the A or B standard - I did not see the start date.

At least this is a discussion today - it gives athletes an opportunity to run a qualifying time.

thx

js

October 1, 2012 – July 20, 2013.

because he has to be available to replace any of the team members.

Automatic Qualification:

The top three (3) rank order finishers in each event at the 2013 USA Track & Field Championships will automatically select themselves to the USATF team for the World Championships (the “Team”), provided that (a) each has, by July 20, 2013, achieved the applicable IAAF “A” Standard, or (b) two of the three have, by July 20, 2013, achieved the applicable IAAF “A’ Standard and the third has, by that date, achieved the applicable IAAF “B Standard. If all three have, by July 20, 2013, achieved the IAAF“A”, the fourth ranked order finisher shall serve as the alternate, provided that he or she has, by that date, achieved at least the applicable IAAF “B” Standard. If only two of the first three have achieved the IAAF “A” Standard, and the other has achieved the IAAF “B” Standard, the fourth ranked order finisher shall serve as the alternate, provided that he or she has achieved the IAAF “A” Standard. If only two of the first three have, by July 20, 2013, achieved the IAAF “A” Standard, and the other has not, by that date, achieved the IAAF “A” or “B” Standard, the fourth ranked order finisher shall serve as a team member if he or she has, by that date, achieved the IAAF “A” or “B” Standard. In that case, the next ranked order finisher may be designated as the alternate provided he or she has met the applicable Standard.

There are NO scenarios that gives Torrance a spot on the team or as an alternate. Only the top FOUR can chase times after nationals. Torrance wasn't in the top FOUR. He didn't have either an A or a B qualifier before nationals. He's done.

USATFF made it so the winner of nationals can self-select himself with just a B qualifier. In their wisdom they also designated the top FOUR with a special self-selection extended window to July 20.

I think it's brilliant. It rewards winning nationals and it rewards the top four as the presumptive team. The only way anyone below the top four can move up is if the four fail to get the designated marks or withdrawl.

Wow, very liberal use of the all caps "WRONG" in this thread. Glad that, in an uncertain world, I can find some certainty here :)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet as a possible motivation for the "only top 4 can chase" rule is that it makes the national meet matter that much more. I make no claims to knowing USATF's mind, but it seems as though this rule forces athletes to make the national meet a priority.

David Torrence actually provides us with a nice example. Here is a guy who came in to the meet with neither world standard, barely qualified for the final (remember that he was the last qualifier on time, edging out Patrick Casey by thousandths of a second), and only managed 7th in a slow race. Yes, he went and ran the A standard ~two weeks later. If you're USATF, what do you do?

Well, as many have pointed out, there's two motivations here. One is to send the best team to world's, no matter what. That would mean sending, in the theoretical extreme, three "A" standard athletes whenever possible. This might mean sending the best team, but there are two drawbacks that I see. First, it deemphasizes the national meet, by basically assuring athletes that, especially in a weak event, if they make the standard at some point their finish at nationals doesn't mean much at all. Second, it introduces "politics" into the equation. If placing at the national meet is only a nominal factor in deciding who goes, it opens the door to even more ambiguity than is currently present in the process. What if we had four A standard athletes in an event, but none even made the final at nationals? Only hypothetical, I know, but I think you can see how problems could easily arise about which athlete had a stronger claim to a world's spot.

The alternative, obviously, is closer to the system we have now, where national meet rank order is (at least by rule) the primary determinant in deciding the world team. Since this is basically the major elite track meet that our NGB puts on every year, it makes sense that it would care about keeping it relevant. Going back to Torrence, we see how this works. Yes, as of right now he has a strong claim to a spot on the worlds team, but USATF can say, "Tough, you didn't perform at our national meet, better make plans to do that next time." If I'm guessing correctly, in USATF's thinking, this will teach athletes the lesson that they had better not blow off the national meet.

Now, obviously, there are always exceptions (the new "medical exemption" waiver that Carmelita Jeter and Lashinda Demus took advantage of this year to still use their WC byes), but I would guess that's one of the big reasons behind the top-4 chaser rule.

In one post you said there is no scenario that gives Torrence a spot and also said "The only way anyone below the top four can move up is if the four fail to get the designated marks or withdrawl".

Your last sentence is an example of how Torrence can make the team.

But what you're saying is that they will just send 2 and leave Torrence home if those ahead of him don't run fast enough.

History has shown us they will fill the field any way they can.

Like Ritz in 2004 getting last in the 10,000 and going or Grant Robison not making the 1500 final at the Trials but being named to the Olympic team.

They have rules and they have exceptions.

They would make an exception for Torrence if need be.

But they won't need to because Centro, Manzano and Lomong will run fast.

Spivey has some serious experience on this subject.

He was 4th at the Olympic Trials at 1500 in 1988 and 4th in the 5000 in 1996.

In both cases he had the qualifying time (no A's and B's at the time, just one standard).

In 1988 the third place finisher, Mark Deady did not have the standard at the Trials and had to chase. He did get it, knocking Spivey off the team.

In 1996 the third place finisher, Ronnie Harris also had to chase. He just missed it and that put Spivey on the team.

In 1992, Spivey took the 1500m race over and won convincingly in a fast race which also provided second place finisher Holman the standard.

Herrington chased and got the standard later.

* wrote:

Your last sentence is an example of how Torrence can make the team.

He cannot make the tea because HE DID NOT HAVE WITHER THE A OR B STANDARD WHEN NATIONALS WAS COMPLETED.

What don't you understand about that?

So you're saying Russell Brown can make the team over Torrence even though he finished behind Torrence at USATF but had the B standard before USATF.

Let's say Brown runs 3:34.80 and no one else runs faster.

Based on your writing the team would be Centro and Brown.

While the faster, higher placing Torrence stays home.

blarg wrote:

Well, as many have pointed out, there's two motivations here. One is to send the best team to world's, no matter what. That would mean sending, in the theoretical extreme, three "A" standard athletes whenever possible.

Debatable. There are often cases in which athlete A beats athlete B 8 times out of ten, but B has a faster time on the year. This is particularly true in the 1500. Everyone knows going into Nationals that they'd better finish in the top 3 if the want to go to WC. Head to head racing is the fairest, simplest and best way to pick 3 people to go race at WC. Everyone also knows ahead of time that they need the A to be assured of going -- there is nothing complicated or unfair about that either.

It only gets complicated if an athlete finishes outside the top 3 and/or doesn't have the A. These 'second chance to make it' scenarios inevitably involve a lot of permutations, depending on who does what. No way to avoid that.

This is all comical.

Malmo's comment was pretty much on.

I'm intentionally trying to make it look complicated, feeding off of other posts.

Forget that top 4 "rule".

The team will be selected in order of finish at USATF provided the individuals hit a standard by Jul 20. No more than one B can go.

Simple.

* wrote:

So you're saying Russell Brown can make the team over Torrence even though he finished behind Torrence at USATF but had the B standard before USATF.

Let's say Brown runs 3:34.80 and no one else runs faster.

Based on your writing the team would be Centro and Brown.

While the faster, higher placing Torrence stays home.

No. Russell Brown cannot jump ahead of Lear because Lear already has the B and Lear finished ahead of Brown at Nationals.

If Brown runs 3:24.80 it doesn't matter. He cannot chase times after the Nationals, only the top 4 at nationals can improve their lot.