Which T&F athletes who retired 30 years or more could still medal against today's best?

Throwers!

WiT wrote:

Let me add championship racing being what it is these days Cram Scott and Ovett could all be in the lead pack with a turn to go but again we are inside your retired 30 plus

but send instead of delete

If Ovett lost to another runner today, he (Ovett) would NOT begrudge him; he would NOT begrudge him!

cant believe it took this long to mention sotomayor.

Sotomayor has a rare dominance in the history of this event. Of the 24 all-time best high jumps, 17 are his. Only 11 men in history have jumped 2.40 meters (or higher), and only three of them have done it more than once: Carlo Thränhardt did it twice (both indoors, 16 JAN 1987 and 26 FEB 1988), Patrik Sjöberg did four times (three times in 1987 and once in August 1989), and Sotomayor did it 24 times (in 21 different competitions between September 1988 – March 1995). He is the only person to have cleared 2.44 m (8 ft) (which he did twice). Following his world record in September 1993, he had his greatest year in 1994, when he (again) was the only jumper to scale 2.40m or better, doing so ten times that year

george peabodies wrote:

cant believe it took this long to mention sotomayor.

Sotomayor medaled at the 2000 Olympic Games. He "retired" one step ahead of a lifetime doping ban in 2001.

Remember we are talking retired in 1982.

Alberto Juantereno, Jim Ryun, and Henry Rono as a steepler, are the only ones in events that have not evolved so much to disclude those guys.

Throwers like Brian Oldfield would still contend at every Olympics today if drug testing was what it was in their day. Same goes for the Eastern European middle distance runners and 400 runners like Kazankina and Koch. They are ruled out in the discussion.

Nehamiah would still be a medal threat today. I think he retired in 1982 when he signed with the 49'ers as a wide receiver. Same with Seb Coe in 1979 but he retired around 1990.

Edwin Moses in 1976-1982 form would still be a top contender today but he competed until 1988.

And even Juanterno ran at the World Champs in 1983. When he broke his ankle on the rail in the 800 heats.

Rono was basically done by 1982, his last year of not.

Snell. Snell, Snell, Snell.

No one can touch Rudisha, but, 1:44.. ON GRASS.

I ran into Javier in the Caribbean in 2005 right after my wedding and he was the "coach" of a group of Cubans. Keep in line with the question of the OP....

No one has mentioned Dwight Stones. He had the arrogance that would still have him competing today and a medal contender. Many athletes were stifled by their times. Not a winner mentality but focused on the marks of the times.

How about Michael Carter? 81 feet still seems like a typo. Football retired him in '84, but not before he collected a silver medal. What could he have thrown had he not been burdened with Pro Bowl football talent?

the viren/yifter question is tricky

viren of '72 v yifter of say late '70s ( peak either '77 or '80 ? )

they both had huge amounts to take off 5k as they were unambitious races on circuit

viren maybe :

52.5 / 1'50.7 ->

3'37.3

7'35.9

13'06.1

27'23.4

yifter

52.0 / 1'50.0 ->

3'36.5

7'35.5

13'06.7

27'28.3

virtually inseparable over 5k, but viren possibly better over 10k

henry in different league in '78 - however, over-racing & poor pacing cost him some huge landmarks

51.1 / 1'48.3 ->

3'33.5

7'29.8

12'57.7 !!!

27'11.6

he shouda cracked 13 in '78 if properly rested & excellent pacing - sub-7'30 wouda been tougher

Ryun essentially loped that last 400 in 50.6 with absolutely no one close. He could have easily gone under 50 if he had been challenged. Those are just the facts.

Moe's Tavern wrote:

I ran into Javier in the Caribbean in 2005 right after my wedding and he was the "coach" of a group of Cubans. Keep in line with the question of the OP....

No one has mentioned Dwight Stones. He had the arrogance that would still have him competing today and a medal contender. Many athletes were stifled by their times. Not a winner mentality but focused on the marks of the times.

Actually, Stones set his PR in the 1984 Olympic trials, and then competed pretty well in the Games that year, so he doesn't quite qualify, but I agree that he's the sort of guy who would still do well today. It's not just because he had the psychological traits of a winner. It's also because he was the master of performance-shaving, doing just enough to get his performance bonus (for a world record, for example) without killing his chances of hitting his new, higher bonus height the next time. (He called it "slicing the baloney," and the thinner the slices, the better for Dwight.) As with Viren (who cared more about winning important races than about running his fastest possible times), it was hard to say how good Stones really was or could have been, because his goal generally wasn't to maximize his performance. It was to maximize his career and his marketability.

Viktor Saneyev his 17.44 best just .04 outside a medal in London with faster runway track and superb competiive nature shown by 3 golds and a Silver surely would be up there

Gerd Wessig his 2.36 WR under pressure of the Olympics in 1980 would surely bring him a medal today

In the long jump Ralph Bostons 8.35 back in 1965 would have won him Gold in London! Again proven championship competitor

Middle Distance Expert wrote:

Ryun essentially loped that last 400 in 50.6 with absolutely no one close. He could have easily gone under 50 if he had been challenged. Those are just the facts.

No, you offer an opinion, not facts. The only "fact" is that he ran the last lap in 50.6, which would have been based on a hand held split from the infield. Hand timing generally gives a split a few tenths faster than an electrical one. So even his 50.6 should have a ? after it, until such time it is in the public domain and checked.

When you say he "essentially loped" the last 400m, this is purely an opinion, backed up by no evidence. As is your quote, "He could have easily gone under 50 if he had been challenged". Pure speculation. Have you actually seen the race?

However good Ryun was, no one just "lopes" a 50.6 last 400 off any pace. Likewise, the idea that he ran the last 300 in 36.4 is ludicrous. The fastest ever last 100m in a championship race is 12.1, yet some people choose to believe that someone was capable of maintaining that for 3 times longer! And some would then go further and suggest that as it was on cinders, then his last lap was worth 49.6 and last 300m in 35.7. These people really don't understand what is possible and what is not. They are buying in to a myth. If the final time had been outside 3:50, then maybe, but not a 3:38. There has never been any athlete remotely capable of doing that in a 3:38.

moron

that was by a guy with a 3'29.7pr

guys running 3'26/3'43 since then but have never been afforded so pathetic as a race needing 12.1 to even get to a 3'38.4

what does your peabrain think likes of hicham/bernie/noah/morceli wouda run last 100 of a race where they'd got to 1400 in 3'26.3 ???

moron

if you have 45+ speed, it's very possible to go high-35/low-36 synthetic in a slow 1500

however, hicham/morceli had high-47 speed which means they woudn't

it also gives indication why cacho likely beat morceli - he likely had more like high-46 speed in '92 & if he'd chosen to run the 800 couda won it, as he had to have 1'43-flat speed to defeat morceli who had better endurance but not 1'43.0 speed to bring in a slow race

yes

it makes it 49.6 finish in a 3'34.5

what your peabrain doesn't understand is that if you have fantastic basic speed, which hicham/morceli didn't, this is entirely possible

ryun ran 47.0 for 440y relay splits twice in '67 after mile races - tired & on chewed up tracks

- he ran 47.0 split after a 3'54.7 mile

- he ran 47.0 split after 4'08.5 mile then 1'49.1 880

those are 440y & unrested moron

on synthetic tracks with : - 1s/lap for dirt + 0.8s relay - 0.3s for 440y/400m ->

46.5

it wouda been helluva lot quicker when considered he ran a 47.0 after the shellacking he took with the 3'54.7 above - likely a 3'50+ on synthetic & of course not in a paced race

moron

tell me one other guy on earth who couda run a "3'50+" followed by a "46.5" later ???

moron

it's just that your peabrain can't think

an unknown until this year in nigel, has gone 1'41.7 in 3rd race in few days

your peabrain woud not consider this possible, but it happened you moron

get a fuuckin brain

utter moron

a likely high-47 guy in morceli destroyed the field in '91 with a 51.55 finish in a 3'32.85 & he didn't even look flat out, having time to look back in stretch

the assertion a sub-50 in a 3'38 is not possible is complete drivel

ventolin^3 wrote:it wouda been helluva lot quicker when considered he ran a 47.0 after the shellacking he took with the 3'54.7 above - likely a 3'50+ on synthetic & of course not in a paced race

addendum

that 3'54.7 / + 47.0 leg was at

Albuquerque

1500+ or 5100+' altitude

that's ~ nairobi altitude & i don't recall kenyans blitzing 3'54.7 in nairobi

( synthetic of course for past coupla decades + ( ryun - dirt ) ) - asbel with 3'28.9 ( 54 finish ) is a comparator )

ncaa charts :

converts a 3'54.7 to

3'50.4

my experience is these "aerobic" charts tend to forget to add on wind/altitude, which is

albuquerque adjustment which like all, needs to adjust the altitude for air resistance/gravity

however, the adjustment is nothing - maybe tenth if you want to calaculate

( mexico is when it means something )

for 1500m for ryun on dirt at sea-level

he ran = of

3'50-mid

maybe better than his wr ??!!

Deanouk -

understood about last lap and 400 for Ryun - HOWEVER - in your estimation would he be competitive today - if not winning?

no one wrote:

Deanouk -

understood about last lap and 400 for Ryun - HOWEVER - in your estimation would he be competitive today - if not winning?

Yes, of course at his 67 peak he would have been competitive against any of the current best milers and beating them more often than not.

But he was not capable of a sub 50 sec last 400 in a 3:38 together with a 36.4

The closest anyone has come in a first class 1500 or Mile (by which I mean championship or the big circuit meets) to run sub 50 was Gonzales and Cram at 50.1 & 50.2 respectively in the 87 European Cup 1500m, which was run in a very slow 3:44/3:45.

I never said that 50.6 for Ryun was not possible in a 3:38. I do not believe that he could have run sub 50 if he wanted to. That is speculation. What should be remembered is that many splits can be taken and checked by looking at video footage and the on screen clock. A hand time from track side is likely 2 or 3 tenths slower for electronic timing. Meaning Ryun's last 400 was more likely 50.8. Mention of Morceli running a 51.6 at end of a 3:32.8 has no relation to Ryun's race at all. That is a second slower than Ryun's split, which is a significant difference. Moreover Morceli's last 300 was 38.8. But Ryun supposedly ran 36.4, and 35.7 if you believe the nonsense some spout.

Morceli was able to go flat out with 400 to go in that 3:32.8 because the lap before (700 to 1100) was a relatively slow 58.6. This puts it in context. His last 800m in that World Champ final was 1:50.1, slightly slower than Coe's 1:49.8 in his 3:32.5 LA win.

Morceli's last lap was a maintained long drive from the bell, only slowing down in the last 100. His last 4 x 100 splits from the bell went 12.8, 12.8. 12.7 and 13.3.

I have no problem with Ryun's last 400 being c. 50.6 and his last 200 being c. 24.8 (which was what was quoted at the time) but his 300 split of 36.4 is a nonsense. That would mean his last 4 x 100 splits would have gone something like 14.2, 11.6!! 12.4, 12.4

The 2nd 100 split of 11.6 is equivalent to 46.4 for 400m, faster than any 400 split Ryun ever run.

And raw 400 speed has only limited baring on the finishing kick or the last 400m of an 800 or 1500 elite. Speed endurance is far more important. That's why the likes of Cram was able to outkick someone like Garry Cook over 800m almost every time, despite having a much slower 400 pb. Cook ran a 45 open and several sub 45 sec relay splits, as well as being a 1:44 800 guy.

Yet Cram and others were able to out sprint him in a 1:44 or a 1:48.

Of course there is a point beyond which even great speed endurance will not get you to. The likes of EL G, Lagat & Ngeny, despite being likely EPO users, were never going to run a 12.0 flat last 100m in a 1500, whether it was at 3:30 or 3:40 pace, because they just didn't have the leg speed. All 3 were 47 high 400 runners at most, and thus a last 100 in 12.0 would require 48 flat 400 capabilities. This is far more difficult than a 10k guy with a 50 sec 400 pb running a 51 last 400 in a slow distance race.

There have been hundreds of world class 1500s and miles inside 3:40/3:57, and none have produced faster than a 12.1 last 100m. It is a fact plain and simple that EL G, Ngeny, Lagat, etc, NEVER matched that finishing time, in spite of countless of opportunities. They had the speed endurance to run 51-53 last 400's but not the raw turn of speed to run faster than 12 flat in a 100m section. Ryun could have done this in a slow enough race, but not an 11.6 in a 3:38 followed by 2 further 100m in 12.4 apiece!

drivel

you said no one coud run 50-flat in a sub-3'38

morceli ran 51.55 in a 3'32.8 when his pb was 3'31.0

what does your peabrain think his last lap couda been when he was in 3'27wr shape ???

or if in his wr shape if the race had reached the bell in 2'48 ???

the 11.6 is likely measuring error as he had to run wide, into lane 3 according to reports as the 2 germans were blocking him

it's likely the wrong distance split was taken

however, it means he ran extra/distance/impaired momentum as coudn't launch full last lap sprint & therefore offsets any hand-timing error in his 50.6

he wouda been likely full value for this & probably faster given unimpeded last lap all in lane 1

just as likely that likes of coe blood doped - idiot contracted toxoplasmosis from it

drivel

clueless as usual

noah was not in same speed/endurance mould as other 2, just that his 1500/mile was similar

he had much faster basic speed than the others evidenced by a 2'11wr off a mid-1'44 split with a 49.8 opener !

you can't run 49.8 opener for a 1k if your 400pb is high-47 & still hang onto 2'11

noah that time had to have low-46 speed & high-1'41 ability

that speed combined with 3'43 endurance wouda given him plenty of ability to run a 12s finish in a pathetic 3'38

moron

when were prime hicham/bernie & especially noah involved in a pathetic 3'38 race to show their last lap & last 100 finish ???

coe in moscow was likely mid-1'42/3'30-flat shape ( & that's being generous ) when he went 12.1

noah in rieti had likely high-1'41 & 3'43 ( mid/high-3'26 ) ability

he was much faster than coe over both 800/1500 that day & wouda had no problem going 12-flat in a pathetic 3'38

old school semnya wrote:

800 meters 1:53.28

Jarmila Kratochvílová (Munich, Germany 7/26/83

I was born before then and I'm not 30 years old, perhaps you need to check your math.