People running long runs too fast are silly

I just turned 50 and ran my first marathon in December '11 (Sacramento CIM). Through August I was doing about 50 mpw with some tempos and long intervals. No long runs.

I decided on the 'thon in September and increased to 70 mpw until the last couple of weeks (the taper). I worked the long runs up to a max of 20 miles. The first 13 miles was roughly 7:00 to 7:20. The last 5 to 7 was around 6:30/mile earlier in the training, eventually reducing the "hard" pace to 6:15 to 6:20 as the training progressed.

Additionally, I would run one very tough workout each week: 3-10 mile tempo, or long intervals. Four days a week I would run easy: 7:40 to 8:00 pace.

I was loosely following the Pfitz plan.

My goal was to run a 2:50. I finished in 2:46:25. My second 13.1 was just 23 sec. slower than the first.

My take on this: Keep up your mileage, follow the Pfitz plan (or similar), and run slow as you can tolerate on the easy days. You gain nothing if you are tired going into the hard workout days.

Brenda Hawley wrote:

I have yet to see in 30 years of running many people who can run PRs when they do all their long runs at MP.

That depends. If you're doing 3 long runs a week then I'd not run them at marathon pace. If you're working up to running a 20-21 miler every 3 weeks at marathon pace then that sounds a lot better to me then doing a tempo run or a few 200's on the track.

jjjjjjjj wrote:

This past fall I was running about 21 mile long runs with the last 13 miles hard every two weeks, the times fell from 6:30s for that last 13 to 6:02 by the last long run, and I ran 6:05 pace at NYC (sub 2:40). Overall pace would be under 7/mile.

OldOregonGuy wrote:

I worked the long runs up to a max of 20 miles. The first 13 miles was roughly 7:00 to 7:20. The last 5 to 7 was around 6:30/mile earlier in the training, eventually reducing the "hard" pace to 6:15 to 6:20 as the training progressed.

My goal was to run a 2:50. I finished in 2:46:25.

Looks like these two guys believe the FAST long run was the key to their marathon success.

As for the Kenyans, they may do a longer run but Canova thinks the key to them going from 2:05-2:03 has been a 14-16 mile run alternating each kilometer between 10 seconds/mile faster than marathon pace and 30 seconds/mile slower than marathon pace. By doing this, the athlete is able to run much more at sub marathon pace because of the buffering of lactate and the usage of it as a fuel during the recoveries. The total run ends up being 10 seconds/mile slower than marathon pace. I am sure they also do 3-4 miles warmup before the workout so they are approaching 20 miles.

You have to look at specificity in the difference between the marathon and a shorter race. A nice easy long run is great if you are doing 10ks because you are doing other workouts specifically geared towards running faster. A hard long run should be replacing one of those other workout days if you are racing longer.

For 4 hour marathoners important things are: lose weight, increase total mileage, increase distance of long runs until you can tolerate running 2.5-3 hours without too much trouble. Pace of long run is not such a big deal. Running long runs too hard will mean it's difficult to keep total mileage up because of recovery demands.

There's no point comparing 4 hour marathoners with elite marathoners. It's a completely different game.

pr100 wrote:

For 4 hour marathoners important things are: lose weight, increase total mileage, increase distance of long runs until you can tolerate running 2.5-3 hours without too much trouble. Pace of long run is not such a big deal. Running long runs too hard will mean it's difficult to keep total mileage up because of recovery demands.

There's no point comparing 4 hour marathoners with elite marathoners. It's a completely different game.

For most 4 hour marathoners marathon pace and easy pace is basically the same.

Silly Wow Wow wrote:

A hard long run should be replacing one of those other workout days if you are racing longer.

Great point. Also:

For me, the entire long run wasn't a hard effort. In my case it was just the last 5 to 7 miles. Also, I would take the next two days very easy. With a portion of my long run at MP or a bit under, along with a lot of sub 6:00 tempos and long intervals, sustaining 6:21/mile in the race was a lot easier.

bmup

Rate my long run. I think I am near 3 hour shape.

I just did 24 miles at 7:30 pace. Felt very comfortable.

newapproach wrote:

I'm going to try to run a marathon off just intense short distance training and see how it goes. Nothing over 5 miles hard.

Yeah that will work. Too funny!

newapproach wrote:

I'm going to try to run a marathon off just intense short distance training and see how it goes. Nothing over 5 miles hard.

Yeah that will work. Too funny!

Maybe it's just the definition of "long run" that is in question here?

Fast long runs are important (for marathon-specific prep). Slow long runs are important too (because you can't do a fast long run every week). Can we all stop arguing and just get along?

I am a 56 year old marathon runner, who ran a 2:53 at 55 and a 2:55 so far this year. So I guess, I am close to that 2:50 range. I personally do all my long runs at a very slow pace (anywhere from 8:00-8:30 and sometimes even slower). I do not do any pace runs. I only do tempo running and long runs, for the most part.

What does your weekly schedule look like, if you don't mind sharing?

McMillan has changed his calculator for slower runners. I know for a fact that a 4 hour marathoner (9:10 pace) can run 3 hours at MP without impacting his/her marathon goals.

I know there is absolutely no-one reading this who has run slower than a 2:59:59.9 marathon but some people coach those who do.

Masters Math Guy wrote:

Just so I am clear, if my target is 6:20 pace for a marathon (~2:46) I should run my long runs between 6:39 and 7:46 pace?

That seems like a rather wide variance for the "optimal" pace even considering issues such as FT/ST, MPW, etc. 7:46 seems like walking to me while 6:39 for a 20 would be a tough workout.

I do varied long runs. Some are just that, time on the legs, steady running with friends. I find that most of those end up being around 730 pace. That's conversational, we can get in the miles and talk and pass the time.

Some long runs however, will be fast finish long runs where the first 8-10 are easy- steady, then the last 8-10 are at MP or slightly faster. Wave tempo runs during the second half of the run, etc..

I like these workout because they take the monotony out of marathon training AND they do wonder in preparing for race day. Mix it up.

They also get those EPO shots that really help tremendously.

OldOregonGuy wrote:

Silly Wow Wow wrote:

A hard long run should be replacing one of those other workout days if you are racing longer.

Great point. Also:

For me, the entire long run wasn't a hard effort. In my case it was just the last 5 to 7 miles. Also, I would take the next two days very easy. With a portion of my long run at MP or a bit under, along with a lot of sub 6:00 tempos and long intervals, sustaining 6:21/mile in the race was a lot easier.

Masters runner 2000+ miles for the past three years. Been averaging 58 mpw this year. Dropped marathon time from 2:52 in 2014 to 2:44 in 2015. I alternate my weekly long between easy and workouts (long run is typically 15 - 21 miles during marathon prep). Easy long run 7:00 - 7:30 - pace depends mostly on fatigue and terrain. If worked hard the week before, running on grass and wearing my heaviest trainers, than most likely 7:30. Pavement wearing wave riders than closer to 7:00 pace. Regardless, I do not look at pace during any of my easy/recovery runs, but run by feel. Workout long runs range from 15 seconds slower than M pace and 15 seconds faster than M pace. To get reasonable marathon goal, take half marathon equivalent time, double and add 10 to 20 minutes. My first two marathons were +20 minutes and my third was +12 minutes, so not a bad formula. If you have a lot of experience, maybe +10 to +15. Novice marathoner +20. I usually start at 6 miles around M pace and work up to 10 to 12 at m pace (anything longer than 12 and you are just leaving your best in the workout and not saving it for race day). One or two mile easy warm up, maybe some cool down. I try to simulate course conditions - if there is a hill at mile 20 or later of marathon, better have a hill toward the end of the workout. I limit myself to three workouts per week. I count an easy long run - 13 miles or over - as one workout. I count a long run with workout as two workouts. This helped keep my healthy and ready for every workout. Mid week workout(s) usually are normal threshold or tempo pace - 5:40 - 6:00 - 3 to 5 miles.

This is the kind of long runs I do as a sub 3 guy. This is the kind of long runs Canova talks about also. My favorite long run is a simple 16 miler out and back. Out at whatever slow pace feels OK and back at MP pace. Throughout training I will add to the MP side of the run but generally don't go over 12, maybe 14 miles, at MP.

I try to keep my long runs at or less than 20% of weekly mileage.