Western States is a JOKE!! - Kilian Jornet

concord wrote:

You make a good point about the downhills. What many don't realize is that a lot of these races are won on the downhills. And downhills negate a main advantage of the fastest road and track runners: efficiency of form.

Running downhill on trails requires a lot of braking and changing stride and it has to be practiced. There is no reason to believe that the top road guys are any better running down a steep rocky trail than anyone else. And WS is a downhill course.

There have been pretty fast marathon guys that have attempted WS. Wardian only finished 15th when he ran it a couple of years ago. He finished 3 hours behind Koerner, who has a marathon pb in the 2:40s.

The point is, the current winners wouldn't even be in the same zipcode as true elite runners. You guys talk about downhills and braking and all that stuff like it would matter. Put 10 2:04 marathoners in WS and see what happens. Complete destruction. They would be so far ahead, they could take an hour nap if they didn't get the fueling quite right the first time.

Some of you guys are really underestimating Kilian. If he can run WS 4 hours faster than 2:17 marathoner that focuses his efforts on ultras (Wardian), what makes you think that a 2:03-2:06 marathoner will blast him out of the water so badly? I think someone like Mutai would be around as fast as Kilian, maybe win, but it wouldn't be a blowout. Kilian is one of the most fit athletes in the world, hands down. The guy is basically the new Matt Carpenter and is even faster than Carpenter in uphill mountain racing, meaning that his VO2 max must be monstrous. For those of you who don't remember, Carpenter destroyed a whole bunch of sub-2:10 Kenyans in a marathon at 13,000' elevation (by over 10 minutes). He's also the type of guy that just decided to qualify for the trials and ran a 2:18 off of only a couple months of moderately focused road training. Kilian is everything Carpenter ever was and more, not to mention that he is one of the seemingly indestructible runners out there. The dude will train 350 miles a week for a couple weeks to build his base and that's the majority of his ultra training right there. No injuries, no nonsense, he just does whatever he wants. Mutai is a sick runner, but if he tried running 350 miles a week in the mountains like Kilian does, I bet he'd break something.

well, this can be debated endlessly. maybe one day we'll see.

the fact that wardian, a 2:17 marathoner and someone that can run 2:24 almost every week, didn't do so well is perhaps telling.

Raptured wrote: if he tried running 350 miles a week in the mountains like Kilian does, I bet he'd break something.

LOL..sure.

If it is a joke, why doesn't paul tergat just go run it for fun and cream everyone. Oh wait, he wouldn't.

Well the contention was put $3 million on the table and give 10 sub-2:05:30 Africans two years to prep for it, including the braking and downhills. The would vaporize Killian. Also in training the Africans are not "racing' the downhills, seeing as that's a good way to beat yourself up. A wise old coach one said about training: "He who cannot lead going uphill leads going downhill." Watch them run downhill at 3:30 pace in XC and see if you can still hang with them.

impossible goals wrote:

If it is a joke, why doesn't paul tergat just go run it for fun and cream everyone. Oh wait, he wouldn't.

Because there is no reason for someone like Paul Tergat to screw up his career with an onerous endeavor like an ultra-marathon. He is done anyway and this is not a challenge of interest to him.

Put up the $3 million, give it two years, and see what would happen with today's best Africans.

Exactly, they're not because it is not of interest to them. Even if there is 3 million dollars on the line, then road running would have to be hugely reduced in its popularity, which it won't be. The gauntlet would have be thrown down by Nike or some other company, and even then, the amount of races that would be able to handle that capacity of runners is very small. The large amount of races are small and home grown, so they wouldn't want that kind of exposure. I think that money being offered to trail runners is good, but it will take a few more years for it to happen. But, as long as more money can be made road racing, I don't think most africans will compete in trail running. Also, it is not an interest to them. Matt Carpenter probably has huge marathon potential, but he's not racing road marathons, he is racing in the pike's peak marathon. Why? Because he wants to enjoy. I don't think most of the good runners are running, there is probably some person somewhere that doesn't run because he hates it, and could blow out a 2:02 marathon, or lower. I know a kid that can run a 4:36 mile as a freshman, does he run? No, he smokes pot and eats at taco bell. So this argument is almost pointless because we're not saying "Oh, well Usain Bolt should run the 400 meters" and when he trained for it, he got injured. It's like saying to a road marathoner, "go run hardrock". They probably could do well in it, but they might get injured, they might suck at eating while running. But, there interest probably doesn't lie in running hardrock, just like the guys running hardrock could care less about their road marathon time.

I don't see the Africans ever doing well in ultras, given the energy and hydration demands of it.

Read what Noakes in the Lore of Running has to say about the elite black South Africans lack of dominance in the Comrades Marathon.

He basically says that their bird-like legs can not handle the distance as well as the northern Europe runners and that is why the elite black marathoners always get smoked in that race.

Might be something to it. Saying a 2:04 marathoner would smoke the comp in a mountain 100 just makes you look like an idiot. Until they do it, it has never been done and just a bunch of babble.

umm ever heard of Comrades....ever heard of Stephen Muzhingi!?

Noakes also says a lot of rubbish that has been disputed by the likes of Canova. You guys sound like the types that said women couldn't run marathons before 1984.

Watch "ENDURANCE" the Haile Gebrselassie documentary and watch him train in the gnarliest trails and conditions. These Africans didn't grow up on concrete streets like a Scott Jurek or Krupicka, they grew up on dirt roads, hilly forests and vast countryside.

From personal experience, I know they can absolutely kill on trails (stints with Kenyans in PA running Laurel Highland Trail which is quite difficult 3-4 hr runs) as it's a matter of fitness. Watch the Geoff Roes video on RunningTimes. It's not about speedwork, but just building general endurance and strength, basically time on your feet.

Remember that most Africans have tens of thousands of more miles in their legs than most Caucasians, a much higher aerobic level to begin with.

Killian Jornet and Matt Carpenter have VO2 Maxes around 92. Not too many people out there that can match that.

These threads about world class marathoners that could come into the ultra world and dominate are amusing. Talk is cheap. Get ONE 2:06 marathoner to enter a major 100, and I'd bet anything he doesn't even finish, let alone win. The insane training it takes to become a top 100 miler is something you armchair wizards couldn't possibly comprehend.

If some top marathoner needs big money for his mercenary butt to enter a top 100, then he can go elsewhere.

If he's got the courage to give it a try for the cost of an entry fee, then more power to him.

You don't seem to understand just how fast a 2:06 guy is. All it would take to shatter most 100 mile cr's is a sub-8 minute pace. These guys are going under 5. It would be like asking a 3hr marathoner to run 11 or 12's- piece of cake and so slow it's almost awkward. Regardless of the downhill's, they would crush current top ultrarunners. And for those comparing a 2:17 guy to the 2:06;s-2:08's..... they aren't running the same race. You are talking about being almost 2 miles ahead. If you train your body to run 8's all day, you'll be very good at it. If that 8min guy/gay tries to run a 6, they'll feel like they are on fire. Josh Cox(2:10 I think) ran his first ultra in college after being dared by his professor- top ultra guy David Horton. He told him to run a real man's race or something. His first time out, after only previously racing in 8k's and 10K's, he won the Mountain Masochist and set the course record-and that was long before he was ever a 2:10 guy. As long as they ate and drank properly, they would not be running the same race.

What you don't understand is that no 2:06 marathoner has ever even ATTEMPTED to run in a 100, which is about 74 miles longer than a marathon- and frequently in the mountains.

To say that they'd come in and dominate is pure conjecture.

Question: If a 2:15 marathoner enters a 100 and gets buried by 2:30 guys, why would you think a 2:06 would come in and dominate?

It's all woulda/coulda/shoulda. Let some sub-2:10 or better come in and show us how it's done.

Oh, not enough money?

Goodbye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkjQxRXPLr8, oh wait, do they run trails where they are practically climbing? Watch this and be educated on mountain running. Not trail running, but mountain running. Or trails like these, http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4xMske-B6FM/TLtr0x-G7YI/AAAAAAAABx4/JL6UiCjLUpw/s1600/DSC01211.JPG. This is trail running, these are hard trails. These guys average like 12 minutes miles uphill, but downhill they're rolling out 6 minute miles or less, usually less. Hence they average of 9 minute miles. Geoff roes says in an interview that during a training run he was running like low five minutes miles because he felt good.

Imagine an 18:00 5K runner stating that he can easily take a 15:00 5K runner in a Marathon. That's the logic of many on this thread.

Surprise! wrote:

Put 10 2:04 marathoners in WS and see what happens. Complete destruction. They would be so far ahead, they could take an hour nap if they didn't get the fueling quite right the first time.

I believe, that only twelve men have gone sub-2:05, in the marathon. They would probably win most races they enter. Having said that, it is my opinion, that it definitely takes a certain breed of runner to be an ultra runner. Especially one who thrives in the mountains. Running at over 8,000ft, is a completely different animal. These aren't hills, and this isn't your college X-C course.

Under Ultra wrote:

Imagine an 18:00 5K runner stating that he can easily take a 15:00 5K runner in a Marathon. That's the logic of many on this thread.

Imagine a guy who is friends of a friend of a 15:00 5k runner insisting that the 15:00 guy could beat the 18:00 guy in a marathon, yet the 15:00 guy and all of his buddies never ever compete in marathons and never will