In Your Opinion the Greatest Negative Spilt Athletic Races of All-Time

ventolin^3 wrote:

spivey was in that race & is one of the handful of guys in the world best qualified to give an opinion on how good abdi was that day

Why would Spivey be one of the handful of guys in the world best qualified to give an opinion on how good Abdi was that day? Previously, when your own lack of success in athletics was pointed out, you asserted that athletic success was not tantamount to possessing analytical skills, etc. NOW you've changed your tune, ostensibly because you are kissing Spivey's ass or else you have no other arguments. I don't agree that Spivey, as good as he was, is an expert on Abdi Bile's potential. Or at any rate, I respect his opinion but would not defer if I felt it was off base. Ventolin, why do you write as if YOU are one of the "handful of guys" best qualified? Why, imbecile, why? I've boxed you into a corner and all you can do is cry for mommy to read you the story of the Velveteen Wabbit.

Please don't turn this into the Quincy Watts thread all over again.

moron

because he ran 3'31.0 & ran against all the greats including morceli who ran 3'27.3

he woud be hugely qualified to make a comparison of how good abdi was compared to a guy such as morceli

eh ??

i've never ever mentioned what my athletics achievements were

they are not relevant to any discussion

spivey's are

that is for armchair quarterbacks which i freely admit to being one

an actual elite's opinion is worth it's weight in gold in comparison

moron

if it was cram or gonzales, i'd be just as happy to here their opinion

drivel

try this for a start

hicham ran 3'28.9pb in '97, barely holding off cacho in a desperate finish

he looked no better than a mid-3'28 guy & absolutely no threat to morceli's 3'27.3wr off that, ever ( of course you woudn't have seen that race as you seem to have seen nothing )

he then ran a jaw-dropping 3'26.0wr the next year, 2.9s faster in actuality & more like 3s++ in terms of observed ease/pacing of both races

hicham looked to have improved 3s++ in 1y off an already 3'28.9pb

he offered repeatability of fast runs, abdi didn't, but the premise a 3'30 guy coud take ~4s off his pb is valid in context of hicham's example

you can then also add noah who went from 3'30 to 3'43 ( = mid/high 3'26 ) in 1y

africans have shown they can make huge improvements in short periods of time

i'll take an elite's opinion over your drivel 100 times out of a 100

eh ?

moron

who's making that claim ???

certainly not me

i am offering analysis using published oxford university physics dept methods

not happy with those, then i suggest you go argue with those guys who are some of the brightest physicists on the planet & lets have a laugh !

moron

you are completely deluded & out of your depth

other pertinent examples of flattening out races is kennster's renowned ability in past few years to run ~ 12'50 - 12'52 with finishing laps of 52/53

off a final 12'52 finish :

53 ->12'41.8

52 ->12'39.0

off a final 12'51 finish :

53 ->12'41.0

52 ->12'38.2

off a final 12'50 finish :

53 ->12'40.2

52 ->12'37.4

which indicates he was in ~wr shape in those races if he had wanted to chase it rather than take low risk option of just winning the last lap sprint to maintain his unbeaten record in those golden league races & share of jackpot

I often split my drinks during races but there were many faster athletes who were equally generous

morceli's 7'25.1wr is worth a look

analysis of it shows that it was very comparable to komen's later 7'20.6 which was run off far more even pace thruout ( iirc using his splits worked at ~ 7'19.0 - 7'19.5 )

splits for morceli i've found were :

57s 1st lap, last 600 in 1'23 & last 400 in 54.2 ->

57/5'05.1/28.8/54.1 ->

~ 7'19.9 !!!

morceli actually had a shot at 7'20 that day if he'd got komen's pacing

conclusion is that intrinsically, in terms of energy expended/quality/etc there is actually very little difference between those 2 runs

if someone can dig up hicham's splits in his 7'23 i woud be grateful as i only watched it the once & didn't note the splits ( apart from the 1st km being pathetic at somewhere around 2'30+ )

There is some difference between a negative split during a tactic competition (as most part of times happens during top Championships), many times due to a very fast last lap possible because before the race was very slow, and a negative split during a WR or, in any case, one of the best chronometric performances all time.

The important fact is that the most part of WR are done using negative splits, with a progressive acceleration in the second part :

2000m (El Guerrouj, 4:44.79) : 2:23.92 + 2:20.87

5000m (Bekele, 12:37.35) : 7:37.34 (average 2:32.45) the first 3 km + 4:59.99 the last 2 km (2:40.59 + 2:29.42 with the last lap in 57.9)

10000m (Bekele, 26:17.53) : 13:09.42 + 13:08.11 (with last lap in 57.1)

3000m SC (Shaheen, 7:53.63) : 2:36.13 + 2:41.96 + 2:35.54

Half Marathon (Tadese, 58:23) : the last 10 km in 27:08

3000m W (Wang Jungxia, 8:06.11) : 2:42.0 + 2:47.7 + 2:36.4

10000m W (Wang Jungxia, 29:31.78) : 15:05.7 + 14:26.08 (the WR of 5000m became better than the seconf half in 2004 only !) with the last 3 km in 8:17.38 !

About Abdi Bile, I fully agree with Ventolin. May be not exactly 3'26", but 100% under 3'28".

People habe to think that, many times, top athletes didn't have too many opportunities in their life for running, when in top shape, in the best conditions for trying a very important time.

Abdi Bile in that period never had the opportunity of races with rabbits, as later happened to El Guerrouj.

I remember in Oslo, when Andy Norman organised the "Golden Mile", in 1989. The competition had a specific budget, and the theme was the duel between Abdi and Steve Cram.

Said Aouita was in good shape (the next month beated the WR of 3000m becoming the first athlete under 7:30, with 7:29.45 in Koln on 20th August) and wanted to try the WR of Mile. I was present at a very animated discussion between Said and Andy, because Norman told him "You can be the best in the World, you can chose the distance you want to run, may be 800 or 1500 if you want or 3000 or 5000, BUT NOT THE MILE. This MUST be the return match between the World Champion of 1500 and the WR holder of mile, and NOBODY else can go in the middle !".

These were the rules of the circuit, different from today. In that competition, Abdi won in 3:49.90 , Wilfred Kirochi was second in 3:50.49, Joe Falcon was 3rd in 3:51.07 and Cram was only 4th in 3:51.58 (and Aouita won 3000m in 7:34.79).

I want also to explain that it's not possible to compare the value of performances done in different periods.

For example, it's true that Abdi Bile had only a PB of 3:30.55, but the WR was only 3:29.46, and the organisation of pacers was according to that level.

Abdi lost OG 1988, that he could win being absolutely stronger than Peter Rono, for a stress fracture in his left foot. Later, he had a lot of problems with his family in Somalia, losing the best opportunities of continuity in training and in comopetitions. However, was still able to have a good come back in 1993, when won the bronze medal in World Championships.

Speaking about competitions in normal meeting, I remember El Guerrouj winning in Torino (2003, the week before his debut in 5000m in Ostrava) a race of 3000m in 7:30.23 (6th of June). He asked for a rabbit able running the first 1500m in 3:40.0, having the idea to try the WR. During warm up, the second pacer had an injury, and the competition went with the first rabbit only, very week. So, the first 1500m were run in 3:52.6. Hicham was very upset, and started to run faster changing speed quickly. His second 1500m were in 3'37"6, completely alone !

The next week, in Ostrava, it was the first time Stephen Cherono (not yet Shaheen) ran a serious 5000m. I told him that, in my opinion, Hicham wanted to try to beat the WR, looking at the shape showed in Torino (he asked for a pace of 7'37" the first 3 km). So, I explained Stephen "Hicham is use to run against time, not against other competitors, and this is the reason he lost in Sydney from Ngeny. So, when the pacers finish their work after 3000m, he thinks to be alone. Instead, you must be with him, and, if you are able to stay during the 4th km, he starts to become nervous, reducing the pace. In this case, you must show him you are fresh, going on his side with two laps to go, and after you go behind him again, waiting the last furlong".

Stephen did exactly this, and won in 12'48"81 against 12'50"24, that after that race never they bettered.

At the end, only one question for Ventolin :

If you accept the idea that, for a top athlete is possible to improve of 3.0 in 1500m in one season, why do you think that, when an athlete NEW can improve, TODAY, is necessary to use doping ? In your opinion, there is more doping today (when athletes are no more able to run fast, in 1500m, like 10-20 years ago) than in the past ?

So, in your opinion, the athletes of the past WERE STRONGER THAN THE ATHLETES OR TODAY, or were better doped, or there was a period when the goal was to try everytime to run fast, with a top organisation of the pace in every competition ?

Because the fact is that, during the last 5 years, the only athlete going in top 10 all-time in 1500m is Silas Kiplagat last year, and the explanation is in one of the reasons I wrote before.

morceli's full split's here :

http://ftp.cs.rochester.edu/~tetreaul/m94.html

200: 28.6

400: 57.7

600: 1:28.0

800: 1:58.6

1000: 2:29.5

1200: 3:00.6

1400: 3:31.4

1600: 4:01.9

1800: 4:31.7

2000: 5:01.3

2200: 5:31.3

2400: 6:01.5

2600: 6:30.9

2800: 6:58.2

3000: 7:25.11

which were :

28.6

29.1

30.3

30.6

30.9

31.1

30.8

30.5

29.8

29.6

30.0

30.2

29.4 !

27.3 !!

26.9 !!!

->7'20.3 !!

this is best answer with most accurate answer ( previous estimate included an initial 57.0 split when it has it here as 57.7 ) & last 600 of 1'23.6 ( as opposed to 1'23.0 )

in actuality, this performance was probably about 1s inferior to komen's 7'20.6wr if we evened those out

( but someone can watch the vid or t&f news & dig them out - lap sprints please & last 200m )

Renato Canova wrote:

About Abdi Bile, I fully agree with Ventolin. May be not exactly 3'26", but 100% under 3'28".

I hate to break it to you, Renato, but you do not FULLY agree with Ventolin. This is the crux of the matter. I AGREE with both of you that Bile could have run under 3:30, probably 3:28 or a tad under, with the right confluence of circumstances. Ventolin is giving Bile a 3:25.9! You of all people should recognize how knocking off 4.65 seconds from a 1500 pb is not trivial. It is a HUGE difference at that level.

very nice posts with lots of splits - i'll analyse them later ( iaaf handbook gives km splits for 5 & 10k - i'll dig them out & work out kennster's flattened out 5 & 10k or someone else coud even dig out his lap splits in both his 10kwr, geb's 26'22 ( which may have been better ) & also geb's 12'39 which had a stupendous finish & possibly better than kennster's 12'37 )if you have hicham's splits in his 3k, i'd appreciate them

If you accept the idea that, for a top athlete is possible to improve of 3.0 in 1500m in one season, why do you think that, when an athlete NEW can improve, TODAY, is necessary to use doping ? In your opinion, there is more doping today (when athletes are no more able to run fast, in 1500m, like 10-20 years ago) than in the past ?

So, in your opinion, the athletes of the past WERE STRONGER THAN THE ATHLETES OR TODAY, or were better doped, or there was a period when the goal was to try everytime to run fast, with a top organisation of the pace in every competition ?

Because the fact is that, during the last 5 years, the only athlete going in top 10 all-time in 1500m is Silas Kiplagat last year, and the explanation is in one of the reasons I wrote before

briefly

i don't think any top africans ( east ) are doping currently

the dopers are mostly 3'35 guys who got upto 3'30/3'31 ( like chouki & khaouch ) & ramzi who probably was an intrinsic 3'30/3'31 guy ( his 3'29.1 off a 52+ 1st lap indicated 3'27 ability that day )

choge has run 3'29 as has silas & virtually everyone reckons asbel is a 3'29 guy in right race ( maybe even 3'28 )

it does appear africans have scared off the top europeans as these guys shoud have intrinsic 3'29/3'30 ability

( albeit cram likely had 3'28-flat ability off his mile wr & coe's 3'31.9 in '81 off a 52+ 1st lap, effectively solo, woud probably be worth 3'26/3'27 with perfect race that day ) if present on circuit & one or two woud dope & shoud have got down to 3'26/3'27

the east african level today is acceptable with 3 guys of 3'29 calibre currently ( & keitany was also good enough to join them ), it's just there isn't one who has distanced himself from the pack into the 3'27s yet

jennifer cruz wrote:I hate to break it to you, Renato, but you do not FULLY agree with Ventolin. This is the crux of the matter. I AGREE with both of you that Bile could have run under 3:30, probably 3:28 or a tad under, with the right confluence of circumstances. Ventolin is giving Bile a 3:25.9! You of all people should recognize how knocking off 4.65 seconds from a 1500 pb is not trivial. It is a HUGE difference at that level.

3'25.9 is perfect estimate for him

it assumes he is the perfect machine who coud fully convert the acute severe pain of a superfast last 800m in a slowish 1500 race to the chronic lower-grade pain sustained fully over 1500m from gun-to-tape

as he was un-used to running below 3'30 otherwise & we don't know how mentally fatigued he might have been in last lap of such an effort, the conversion may not be perfect

therefore a time of 3'27 is perfectly reasonable from canova, whereas the asymptotic limit is 3'25.9 for perfect conversion

some guys like hicham/morceli/aouita/coe/cram the conversion is likely to be virtually perfect as they showed repeatability, but it still doesn't mean abdi woudn't also have - he won the gold in a performance people are still lauding 23y later

ventolin^3 wrote:

3'25.9 is perfect estimate for him

it assumes he is the perfect machine

OK, now we have come to the heart of the matter. We are truly making progress, my dear, as you have now come to recognize the insurmountable chasm which exists between those of us who have stood on the award stand due to our heroic efforts and those fiddling with a calculator. We knew we were not the perfect machine, and this is why we struggled so valiantly. The perfect machine is probably aided and abetted by performance enhancing agents...However, be that as it may, perfect machines exist in your calculations, but not in actual races.

moron

you are drivelling

i'm not interested in your piss ant "award stand" unless it was at a global

eh ??

i mentioned those who almost certainly were & abdi who very well may have been

don't dare compare yourself to them unless you fufilled above criteria

now i know you are a complete moron

typical letsrun moron response to everything

guys like cram/ovett/paula/ryun/etc i woud bet my bottom $ were absolutely clean & they were virtually perfect machines

usual response from an idiot who has no clue as to the science involved

do you think there is any doubt in anyone's mind here who saw cram run 3'46wr with a 53+ last lap & seemingly getting faster & faster on that last lap that he woudn't have satisfied "perfect machine" criteria & run 3'28-flat that day in a perfect race ???

Idiot, by definition, a performance enhancing agent enhances performance. You write of perfect machines, which do NOT exist. However, machines which approach perfection would likely be aided by agents which enhance performance. Can your midget brain not comprehend this? I feel as if I am having a discussion with an idiot savant minus the savant who is obsessed with his calculator as a phallic symbol.

f***ing idiot

what "peformance enhancing agent" are you going to quote in the context of excellence in these athletes ???

then look up what the adjective, "virtually" in "virtually perfect machines" means

then f*** off moron

you are offering me nothing & wasting my time

malmo once quoted these splits for komen, but the ones upto 2k actually appear to be the pacer's :

0400 57.5

0800 1:56.

1000 2:25.89 (59.26)

1400 3:23.55 (57.66)

1800 4:23.46 (59.91)

2000 4:53.18 (29.72)

2200 5:21.83 (58.37 - 29.72/28.65)

2600 6:21.58 (59.75)

3000 7:20.67 (59.09)

i'll work on them later ( but result will over-estimate as komen was a good few tenths slower at each check-point to 2k )

some wr splits here :

http://www.diamondleague-oslo.com/Global/Oslo/Documents/Oslo_Records.pdf

Solinsky, Stanford 10k

go rick wrote:

Paulas marathon world best 68:02/67:23

Her marathon debut was pretty impressive too. She ran 2:18:56 with a 3:12 negative split - 71:04/67:52 and almost broke the world record at the time.