Masters Weekend Runs and Races

me and my watch wrote:

If you hire a CPA, I doubt they'll know anything about masters' prize money. A little history will help.

aid that actual pros could, in fact, compete in the olympics. Depending on your CPA, you might be able to just call it "training expense money," or you might have to call it "prize money."

Oy, I am going to be called a jerk again...

but the above simply a useless anecdote, it is not good tax advice.

Belieive me dodato, the TACtrust rules have no relevance here.

(and for what it's worth I am familiar with those rules as I had an account at the BOB as well)

A CPA that is in the tax profession will absolutely know what to do with your situation. CPAs in the tax biz have indexed access to the IRS Code, Treasury Regs, case law.

Read what I wrote in an above post. You have hobby income, you are not a business unless you can prove you are an enterprise operating for the reason of making a profit (you ain't)

Your income is "other income", your expenses are sch A misc. deductions. Chicago will probably get your SS# and send you a 1099. THe IRS will also be notified. This is simple stuff that has nothing to do with TAC or AAU. If you file a schedule C you raise your audit risk.

If you schedule C it you'll have to pay employment tax (FICA).

"Other income" it and you will not have to pay employment tax.

There is no super secret tax rule.

Just get a CPA. and don't take tax advice from this thread unless it ends with: "get a CPA"

mplatt wrote:

[quote]Ghost of Ashenfelter wrote:

Actually GoA, we have yet to determine if dodato is male or female.

I'M ALL MAN, BABY!!!

mplatt, i forgive you being an asshat if you forgive me for being a gender confused asshat.

wait...scratch the "if" i forgive you unconditionally. since i refuse to use emoticons, insert liberally (or conservatively, depending upon your political leanings) at-will.

have a great week!

erik

Holy cow the thread's lively this week! Not necessarily for the better, either. :-(

Good week here, with 3 x (5 x 200) on 100/400 jog rest somewhere a little quicker than 1500 pace Tuesday - more or less a bunch of long strides - and then a 5k race Saturday morning. Total of 65 miles, including a gorgeous trail run Sunday morning.

Not sure what's on tap yet this week. Next race is the 8k in Philly in three weeks. My wife will run the marathon that day. Her preparations are coming along really well, and for the first time ever, she had a bigger mileage week than me, with ~ 70 miles. She's not really fast, so that kind of mileage eats up a heck of a lot of time, but she's pretty determined.

Have a great week, everyone!

mplatt - thanks for the good advice, not that I have too much to be concerned about with $125 in "earnings" that is nearly balanced by the travel expenses to those events.

But having your taxes done by a CPA at least every few years is a good idea, since you can reference it in future returns if your income situation and tax laws do not significantly change. I think too many people get caught up in the apparent simplicity of using TurboTax.

mplatt wrote:

Masters are lucky that races like Chicago provide prize money for Masters. Personally, I think it is charity. The ROI on Masters prize money is probably nothing, and with posts from the winner of said prize money posting insinuations the ROI just became a cost.

I've had a long weekend 'at the races' helping out & my mind is still a little fuzzy but, geesh, I figuratively tripped over this comment by mplatt. What the hey?! Charity? Perhaps you've stated your reason for calling it charity somewhere else/another time, but I didn't see it. Care to kindly explain to the LR audience why you believe masters prize money is charity and, forgive my ignorance, what ROI stands for? Thanks.

scotth wrote:Care to kindly explain ... what ROI stands for? Thanks.

Pete wrote:

Holy cow the thread's lively this week! Not necessarily for the better, either. :-(

Have a great week, everyone!

Pete, et al;

I would hope my replies to mplatt, and his replies to me are seen as nothing more than clarifying posts. Since it is impossible to know contextually where someone is coming from with these boards, I appreciate that mplatt attempted to clarify my comments. I made a bad joke initially that he interpreted as a slight to Chicago. I didn't intend it as such. Folks otherwise were confused as to whether I run commando or otherwise, so I tried to clarify that. This is a good thread and mplatt actually draws out a very good point in that those new to masters running, and find success with it, may be a little disoriented by the process.

I don't know, nor care to, mplatt's history in posting on these boards as it isn't germane to the topics above. It's my responsibility to present my thoughts clearly in electronic communications and I didn't do that.

Anyway, I agree this is a wonderful thread every week. I agree that it's supportive, informative, and all that every week. I hope my posts aren't seen as detracting from that history.

So, does anyone have any experience with Al Lawrence training and could you offer me some insight as to switching from Kevin Beck style marathon training to Al Lawrence style 5/10k training?

;)

Yeah, what a shock, Mike Platt calling it like he sees it without any warm fuzzies to cushion his opinion. ;-)

Seriously, to know Mike is to love him. His brashness can knock the wind out of you the first time you encounter it, but I've come to consider it a breath of fresh air over the years. And he's got a great heart behind it. And a tremendous love and respect for our sport.

Mike used to be a regular poster here. And a competitor at most of the big masters races. And, I might add, the toughest competitor I've ever run against. A lot of us use his name as a synonym for the hardest effort possible - a race where you shrug off injuries, illness, whatever, and run until your eyes bleed and your legs wobble and you sprint the final quarter-mile while your vision goes dark and your lungs scream in pain.

In any case, Mike, we miss you at the races! Hope you overcome those injuries and make it out to an x-country championship again one of these days!

This week was a recovery week with 35 miles all easy except for the Saturday run with my sons, who seem to find amusement in making me run hard tempo pace (for me, not them) and then asking me questions to make me carry on a conversation while I struggle for oxygen.

How is La Jolla doing ?

scotth wrote:

I've had a long weekend 'at the races' helping out & my mind is still a little fuzzy but, geesh, I figuratively tripped over this comment by mplatt. What the hey?! Charity? Perhaps you've stated your reason for calling it charity somewhere else/another time, but I didn't see it. Care to kindly explain to the LR audience why you believe masters prize money is charity and, forgive my ignorance, what ROI stands for? Thanks.

I will try to explain, and I am sure I will end up upsetting some but I have never been a populist.

ROI is Return On Investment.

As in: what benefit does Chicago receive for offering prize money to Master runners?

When large International races such as Chicago offer prize money for masters, I do not view it as doing anything to help the event. If you eliminated Master money from Chicago etal. you could not find one measurable negative effect. The elite field remains the same; the number of runners remains the same, and the race receives the same pre and post race publicity.

So why is the Master money offered?

I cannot say why the Master money is offered. It may be that these races are directed by former runners, people who love the sport. And because of their love of the sport and the athletes, they include prize money for masters. In my mind, that is charity. Charity to the "masters running scene".

Now, the runners that win that money earned it fair and square.

I know many Master runners who are solid runners, I cannot think of one of them that compete as a Master because of the money. And I think nearly all of them make their race schedule based on competition, not based on money.

In addition, I do not think Masters should believe they deserve money or even equal status as the elites. That we sometimes are treated as equal to the open elites and that we are offered prize money is just a huge bonus. A HUGE BONUS!

I enjoyed my few years training to compete as a Master at the highest level possible, but I never expected anything special other than having been able to race with my peers in a fun competition. And then getting a wink and nod at the end of it all.

I would much rather see the open elite field receive better treatment, even if it were at the cost of some of the benefits we receive as Master runners.

Masters are not being ripped off if we are treated as just regular part of the field. We all spent the same amount of time in our teens, twenties, and thirties. We all had the opportunity to play our hand when we were in the time of our life that our physiology allowed us to discover our ultimate talent and match it up against the rest of the elites.

Some people do not share my view... they think assets should be dedicated toward a portion of the field that is not physically capable of competing for the overall win. I just do not see it that way.

My original sentiment stands. If you are going to collect money from races, be a huge positive for the race, BE A HUGE POSITIVE, because when all is measured, Chicago does not need us.

That’s all I got.

You raise some interesting points.

Master's running is a bit of a sideshow, I won't dispute that. Many of (them) do race simply for the spirit of competition and to see where (they) stand. We all recognize it's not "our time" anymore.

A wise coach once said the following (approx.): Runners are bonded together like men (and women) who served in combat together. The guys you trained and raced with or against share a lifelong connection.

In many cases master's runners have done and continue to do much to help shape and improve running today. (Also note that master's prize money is usually exceeded by open prize money). We were guinea pigs for Nike Airs, for odd training methods, for for active wear. Many of today's cutting edge technologies and coaching methodologies are in part due to our input and expertise. We don't have the marks to win everything in sight however we have the ability to serve as experienced mentors to today's younger runners. We are valuable commodities and race directors recognize it is worth their investment to treat us with some recognition even if you don't agree with this principle.

Like it or not master's runners are an influence. They are mentors, promotors, they give back to the sport so if you think of charity it is usually a two-way street.

Master's runners continue to be rabid fans and supporters of high-profile running events. Some would say we represent a more rabid fan base than today's generation of runners. They also tend to have more disposable income and it is likely a prudent ROI for marathons like Chicago to throw us old geezers a few bones to maintain or enhance their inroad into the fairly solid master's 'market.' Master's runners aren't in it for the big bucks. They have families, careers, injuries, many life circumstances which preclude (them) from competing at the highest level.

We both understand,

thanks for being reasonable and "getting it".

I think I agree with mplatt's whole post, except I just wonder about this part:

mplatt wrote:I know many Master runners who are solid runners, I cannot think of one of them that compete as a Master because of the money. And I think nearly all of them make their race schedule based on competition, not based on money.

The legitimate competitive masters guys I know, some of whom are still fairly close to being competitive with the elite open guys (although obviously not all the way there) do arrange some of their racing schedule on the basis of there being good prize money, and will travel for those races.

Now I suppose the question is, do they go to those races for a chance at some cash, or because those races have better competition? I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing... which comes first, the prize money or the deep field? I don't think you will *often* draw a deep masters field without prize money (for a road race at least - XC nationals draws probably the deepest masters field in Canada, with nothing but bragging rights on the line).

Of course, I offer this perspective as one from the outside looking in, not having had a long, successful pre-masters career, and being only a regional level masters guy, not usually in danger of winning any cash. :-)

I don't race for money because it'd just end up costing me too much money! ;-)

But a guy like Dennis Simonaitis banks a pretty good chunk of change during the course of a year ($5K here, $8K there, a few $1Ks thrown in tend to do that ... especially when free travel and board is part of the package).

As for the idea that masters money is charity ... sometimes yes, sometimes no. As Mike correctly puts it, some races could get rid of masters money AND top masters runners and lose nothing. But other races might benefit from a top older runner. Will people show up to race Joan Benoit? Maybe. Dean Karnazes (god hate his poser self) is certainly a draw. So if masters runners do draw attention (and entries) to a race, then it's not charity. Is Carlsbad giving charity when they offer 1K to the winner of the Masters 5K? I don't think so. 1100-1200 masters men run the Carlsbad Masters 5K most years. I gotta think a lot of them get a kick out of seeing old guys up front running sub-15 minute pace. Lose those front runners, and I think you lose some volume on your entries. In fact, as Carlsbad has refused to up the prize money, and has subsequently gotten a slower and smaller group of top masters, the overall participation has also fallen off - this year's numbers were way off ... but with an entry fee of $50, it's hard to pin that on the slower times at the front.

All that said, I run for the competition - why the Masters Club X-Country Championship is, has been, and will continue to be my favorite event of the year. 400-500 hardcore masters distance guys lining up in snow or mud or freezing temps or whatever and gutting up out once a year for no money, no fame, abysmal times, just the competition - now that's what masters running is all about!

OMBTS, LJ is as beautiful as ever. We ran up through Torrey Pines State Park Saturday AM. the sky was blue and my daughter-in-law said that it felt more like August than November.

knock knock...oh, ummm, sorry, I was looking for OMBTS and the Masters Weekly Runs and races thread...obviously I've got the wrong address.

MF

Hey, this is my first post on here, but I have been following it for a while now. I'm a senior that runs in a bunch of races and wins some money, but I certainly don't run to win the money. However, a race that posts prize money is more likely to have a competitive crowd and to take the masters/seniors more seriously. Charity is just a bad choice of words; however, it is not a big investment or return for the race organizers, and we should all be very appreciative that we are recognized at all. I grew up in SoCal and the surfers and beach volleyball players were lucky to squeak out any money out of their sports and now look at them... Seniors golf makes good dough, so what the heck...

I see some of you putting up 75-80 mile weeks, and I ran my whole first year on about 30 mpw (and 2 spin classes), and now I am up to 40-50 after 2 years running, but I would be interested in how you structure 75-80. How many doubles do you run? How long is your long run? I did run 65 the week after Greensboro since I didn't have a race the following week. It had 2 days that had 17, one a long run and one a double. Then I had a track workout 3x2000 in 6:30 and a bunch of easy runs that added to the 65...

I guess that bpilch was waiting to post here until he won a U.S. National Championship (50-54 division at 2008 USATF National Masters 5K XC) and won a PAUSATF master's race OUTRIGHT, which he did a couple of days ago at age 52 on the tough cross-country series.

Good to see he's going to get serious about his running now...watch out SoCalPete...