so for your faster guys you would use something like 40 seconds rest with the 1000s, minute rest w/ miles and 2 minutes with the 3200s or still the 60,90,120
so for your faster guys you would use something like 40 seconds rest with the 1000s, minute rest w/ miles and 2 minutes with the 3200s or still the 60,90,120
wondering IIiV wrote:
so for your faster guys you would use something like 40 seconds rest with the 1000s, minute rest w/ miles and 2 minutes with the 3200s or still the 60,90,120
Nah--too complicated. We usually had 4+ groups running and 3 coaches to manage it. Sometimes we just have to be practical!
Our workout course is fairly slow--1/2 slight uphill and 1/2 slight downhill. Even for my 9:04 3200 runner, those 1000s at T-Pace were 3:20 on that course (whereas he was just over 3:00 on the track). The spread between him and the rest of my top guys in his group was about 20 seconds. We went on the 1:00 after he finished, so they got less rest while he got more. Same thing on the miles.
Ideally, I would have done this with less rest for all, but it just wasn't possible with the numbers we had.
When I wanted to make sure he really got a deep T-pace workout he'd do a progression on a rolling course and finish with a mile on the track.
Giving the proper rest is hard when you’re trying to time the workouts and have kids at different abilities. I don’t have the luxury of assistant coaches (although my one of my top girls just tore her ACL so she’ll be helping not running).
Does anyone have the kids time their own workouts and rest? Does this work or too complicated for both athletes and coach?
Colman wrote:
Giving the proper rest is hard when you’re trying to time the workouts and have kids at different abilities. I don’t have the luxury of assistant coaches (although my one of my top girls just tore her ACL so she’ll be helping not running).
Does anyone have the kids time their own workouts and rest? Does this work or too complicated for both athletes and coach?
The other option is to do all your cruise intervals by time, not distance. We do something like 10x3 minutes with 1 minute rest around a big grass field.
Actually, so far as practice organization and regulating athlete recovery time goes, it's almost always easier to do intervals, thresholds, and cruise intervals by time rather than distance.
As a coach who has had a number of footlocker finalists and state qualfiers on the track I can say that the way these HS conferences run piss me off...but there is nothing I can do. There is no need to run a dual meet every week. Luckily, our league now has only 3 meets but they have every team so they are all basically league finals. In college we would split the teams up. Still run two races half the boys teams and half the girls teams in race #1 and the rest in race #2. Why have 3 league championship runs?
Anyways, what everyone is saying on this thread is pretty spot on to what top athletes can handle. I like the cruise interval idea but I have to say, no matter how much I work with these kids the majority of them can not run the tempo correctly. It is hard to run the correct pace, to first know your pace and then hold it throughout the workout. They usually start out too fast, fade and kick it in. Well, that is not a tempo. So like others it is more like a slower pace that I call a "sustained effort." Cruise intervals with short recovery are also key. 30 sec. for 400's, 1 min for 800 reps. These things can help.
That's a really interesting observation about how difficult it is to have kids discern what threshold is, especially since a great many of them are there for reasons other than being world-beaters! After a couple of seasons they get better at it, but you're right about the inconsistent way they run them.
I like the idea of running cruise intervals for time and may try to figure a way to do that on our course. Thanks.
the season is so short, (sept and oct), that you have to have your runners putting in some decent mileage (base work) on their own in July and August, in order to really run well by late Oct.
Johnny Rotten, you mentioned using the DVD “Building A Better Runner”. Would you mind sharing what drills you use, how often, and what days?
I watched the "Tempo Warm-Up", do you use this? I was thinking of using it on recovery days. Do you use these drills to warm-up for a race?
Thanks Again.
I love that DVD. We adapted the tempo warmup for our middle distance kids, who do it during track season on workout days and as a warmup for races, and we've adapted it again for the xc kids. We do a series of strength exercises after practice in place of the weightroom, as well. All of this cames directly from that video, although I know that much of what's on there comes from many, many other places as well.
Tempo warmup we did incorporated 20 or so drills and took about 20 minutes.
For xc we're doing these as a warmup every day:
1. 1x10 Eagle
2. 1x10 Scorpion
3. 1x10 Head Circles
4. 1x10 Arm Circles each arm
5. 1x20 Arm Swings
6. 1x10 Foot taps (toe up—each foot)
7. 1x25m Slow Motion Running (Arm swing/foot landing)
8. 2x25m B Drill plus stride
9. 2x25m G Drill plus stride
10. 2x25m High Butt kicks plus stride
As part of their cooldown they are doing this 3x/week:
1. 10-9-8-7-6 Pushups and Crunches
2. 2x20 Lunges
3. 2x10 Hamstring Resist (Bent Knee)
4. 2x10 Hip flexor resist
5. 2x10 Chair squat
6. Alphabet each leg
7. 4-way ankle resist
8. 1x15 Dog Pee (each leg)
8. 2x10 Opposite arm/Opposite Leg
9. Plank (1”-2”-3”)
10.3xSun Salutation Sequence
Some of the stuff on there actually hurts longer distance runners, I think (4-way fire hydrant, for example, or the hurdle seat), because our bodies just aren't designed for that. But my md runners love it.
I can't say enough that I think that is a really helpful DVD for the high school coach. And now the guy doing the drills (Christian Smith)is an Olympian.
Thanks. Do you have them jog first?
Yeah--about 2 minutes, just to start sweating.
One of my assistants is really an expert in this stuff, having coached Jackie Coward and worked with the loveable Chuck Ryan. He's very good with this and really takes the lead.
My other assistant has worked up a 13-point rubric, from head to toe, to guide him in working with the kids' running form. He'll do video analysis of their form and go point-by-point through their mechanics, trying to help them to be as efficient as their bodies will let them be.
I, meantime, will be sitting in a lawnchair fanning myself.
yeah I agree with most of the people on this thread keep the thursday/wenesday (I would go with wenesday) workouts at some kind of tempo/fartlek thing.. probably tempo because kids would race the fartlek.
Don’t forget the doughnuts and umbrella to go along with the lawn chair.
I don’t have the dvd with me and I’m unfamiliar with Foot taps are they on the DVD?
I agree with some of the drills not being the best for distance runners. However, I wish I had done more of these things when I was competitive. I think my body would be much better off right now.
Wow you don't mess around -form rubric; my main focus has been on turnover and getting them to take 180 steps per min. Easy for most of the girls, but a few guys struggle.
Having them run the cruise intervals for time over the same course works well, I like 4 x 5min. I think I got this from Running with the Buffalos; but I like to have them carry a flag with them (I use the top of the invisible dog fence flags, so it doesn’t get ruined with sweat). At the end of each interval they drop the flag, jog, and go back to the flag to start the next one. I have them write down how far they got in the total workout for comparison sake later in the season. Usually do it twice a year, most of them get a lot farther the second time and helps builds confidence. The workout totaling 20min is also nice, gives most of them the chance to see what they hit 5k in. Others can see how close they get to 5k in 20min. Sometimes this workout is done too fast and turns into a Vo2max not tempo, that's why we only do it twice.
This is how we have set things up over the last few years, and have been pleased with the results. I am just putting race, Thold, VO2 days down - Tues, Thurs. Sat. each week. We take Sundays off or really easy on their own. Other days are one long run of 50-75, depending on schedule, one easy day of 30-40 min., one day of 30-50 with strides.
All thold and VO2 is done using Daniels' tables and CURRENT race pace. We go conservative on these paces. Plus, we are using CC race times, but running our workouts on a flat, limestone trail - which would make it even a little more conservative.
We kind of do VO2 and Thold inverse to each other - when one is longer reps, the other is shorter. Seems to keep them fresh. We also start with volume about 2400 meters, build to about 6400-7200meters, and then cut back down to about 2400 again.
Here are the Tues, Thurs, Sat. workouts for our 12 week season. T= threshold, V = VO2 max/race pace, R= race/meet.
Rest = VO2(= or less to time running), Thold (one half to one third of time spent running)
1 - V=(12x200), T=(3x800), Saturday off
2 - V=(8x300), T=(3x1200), Sat. off
3 - V=(12x400), T=(5x1000),easy run
4 - V=(7x800), Meet, T=(7x800)
5 - V=(6x1000, T=(10x600, Meet
6 - 1600/1200/800/400@ aer/thold/vo2/goal, Meet, T=(16x400)
7 - meet, T=(14x400), meet
8 - V=(6x1000), T=(10x600), meet
9 - meet, Friday V=(7x800)
10 - V=(12x400), conference, T= (7x800)
11 - V= (10x400), District, T= (12x400)
12 - V=(8x400), Thurs(30 min. with 200m strides), State
K.I.S.S. wrote:
Think less run more. You don't get good at racing unless you race. I don't see a problem racing every week. This thread is turning into a calculus test.
Malmo help us!
While I agree that you need to keep it simple I must disagree about racing. I know one of the biggest problems I had in HS was that we raced way way way too much, 18-20 races a season. That's an invitational every week, and at least 1 if not 2 dual or quads during the week.
It is nice to be able to control the schedule: 3 weeks in a row of racing on Saturday, next week off, 4 weeks in a row of racing on Saturday, next week off, and Peak Meet. Most runners will only run 6 of 7 races before the Peak Meet.
I read the thread on training and racing. The issue is having a young team with 40-50 9th/10th Graders and 5-7 11th/12th Graders. The key is to insure we keep that core of underclassmen intact to build upon for future success. I plan on having 4 Groups: Varsity, JV, Freshman/New Runner that did train during the summer, and Freshman/New Runners that did not train during the summer. Then balance the workouts and miles to fit each group. How do coaches handle such a young team?
Off the bat, I have to say that this is one of the best threads that I have read on this message board! I have definitely appreciated reading everyone's input. I am a young coach going into my 3rd year of coaching my high school team. When I took over the program, the team was solid in our league but was nowhere close to being on the state level. Last year we qualified for states but finished at the bottom of the pack. So now I'm trying to take what has been working and keep raising the bar until we get to the top. I would love to get some input from the many experienced and successful high school coaches on this board.
The high school mileage thread got me thinking about appropriate mileage levels for running a high school program. While I understand that mileage is a totally individualized training component, I also feel like there has to be some benefit to gradually building a runner's mileage throughout his/her high school career. I was wondering what you consider to be workable mileage goals for boys and girls as they progress through your programs? Obviously, this mileage base will be built gradually throughout the summer. Then I'm also interested in how you alter your mileage levels as you progress throughout your season through invitationals, Leagues, Districts, and the State Meet?
Thanks again for any discussion! This has been a valuable thread and I want to keep it going.
What do you guys think of this . . . very generic outline.
M- Easy
T-Race
W- Workout (usually Tempo, depends how hard they raced Tuesday)
Th- Easy
F- Long (if no race on Sat.)
S- Race (3 Saturday invitationals) or Workout
S- On Your Own (off or easy)
I’m mostly concerned about the long run then going hard again on Saturday. Is this too much for High School kids. Thursday will be very easy and the long run will be easy pace. I’m having trouble finding a spot to put the long run. Sunday is ideal, but I’d rather have it a day we meet.
I’m open to suggestions.
Here's the basic progression we will use. I think if you're racing every week, VO2 work can be kept to a minimum. We will use three specific VO2 workouts 3/4 of the way through the season as a "goal pace" confidence building workout.
Three "hard days", the rest 30-90 minutes EASY. Strides and core strength added to 2 Easy runs per week. Core strength uses a similar periodization to our running.
Summer Base Mileage depends on the individual, then the 12 week progression.
Week#: PrimaryI PrimaryII PrimaryIII
1 LT Int. Hill repeats Fartlek
2 LT Int. Hill repeats Fartlek
3 LT Int. Hill repeats Fartlek
4 CV Repetitions Race
5 CV Repetitions Race
6 CV Repetitions Race
7 VO2 LT Run Race
8 VO2 LT Run Race
9 VO2 LT Run Race
10 Race Mixed Intens Strides
11 Race Mixed Intens Strides
12 Race Mixed Intens Strides
LT INT are at Daniels' T pace and progress in volume
HILL REPEATS will go 10x50, 10x75 and 10x100
FARTLEK is varaiable..make it fun
CV= critical velocity..about 10k pace (90% of VO2 max) and a perfect transition from LT pace to VO2 pace. Progress in volume
REPETITIONS are 10% faster than race pace with recovery jog equal to distance run
VO2 are at goal race pace for confidence= recovery.Progress in extension of the time run. Example, move from 800m repeats to 1200 meter repeats, keeping roughly the same volume...
LT RUNS are used as progression runs are are 2 miles longer than race distance.
MIXED INTENSITY work is heavier on Threshold stuff, but includes some goal pace and some repetition running, but not faster than we have done before.
Ratchet down the volume each week leading into the last week.
hope this helps...