Every athlete should be able to take supplements under the legal limit. Thats the definition of a legal limit.
Taking legal supplements (to a legal level) isn't the issue. Taking anything that is construed as a ped is. That's what doping is and what so many athletes now do.
The rules I refer to apply to athletes with XY disorders of sexual development competing in the female category. The 5nmol level set for them is above the level that female athletes would naturally attain so there isn't a limit set for cis-females. A biological female could not surpass the t-level set for DSD athletes as they do not possess testes.
However, as testosterone is a banned substance regardless of sex neither females or males can use it.
Do you mean World Athletics's current rules for DSD athletes seeking to compete in the female category? If so, the level of T you're citing is twice the level now allowed.
World Athletics' upper limit for XY DSD athletes with testes competing in women's events isn't 5 nmol/L like you keep saying. The current limit is under 2.5 nmol/ like I said.
The limit has been under 2.5 nmol/L since new rules went into effect at the end of March 2023.
From the document titled, "World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for the Female Classification (Athletes with Differences in Sex Development) (Version 3.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)":
A "Relevant Athlete" is an Athlete who meets each of the following three criteria:
1) They have one of the following DSDs: 5α-reductase type 2 deficiency; partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (aka PAIS); 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (17β-HSD3) deficiency;ovotesticular DSD; or any other genetic disorder involving disordered gonadal steroidogenesis;
and
2) as a result, they have a concentration of testosterone of 2.5 nmol/L or more in their serum;
and
3) they have sufficient androgen sensitivity for that testosterone to have a material androgenising effect.
To be eligible to compete in the female classification at a World Rankings Competition, and/or to have recognised any World Record performance in a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition, a Relevant Athlete must meet each of the following conditions (the "DSD Eligibility Conditions"):
- they must be recognised at law (for example, in a birth certificate or passport) either as female or as intersex;
- they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L for a period of at least 24 months;
and
- they must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or to have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
Thank you for that. I hadn't seen the later reduction in the permitted level, chiefly because I ceased to closely follow the issue after the resolution of the Caster Semenya case. I recall the older limit was set to also take account of those rare XX cases that have a higher level of naturally occurring testosterone (around 3-4 nmols).
Do you mean World Athletics's current rules for DSD athletes seeking to compete in the female category? If so, the level of T you're citing is twice the level now allowed.
World Athletics' upper limit for XY DSD athletes with testes competing in women's events isn't 5 nmol/L like you keep saying. The current limit is under 2.5 nmol/ like I said.
The limit has been under 2.5 nmol/L since new rules went into effect at the end of March 2023.
From the document titled, "World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for the Female Classification (Athletes with Differences in Sex Development) (Version 3.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)":
A "Relevant Athlete" is an Athlete who meets each of the following three criteria:
1) They have one of the following DSDs: 5α-reductase type 2 deficiency; partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (aka PAIS); 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (17β-HSD3) deficiency;ovotesticular DSD; or any other genetic disorder involving disordered gonadal steroidogenesis;
and
2) as a result, they have a concentration of testosterone of 2.5 nmol/L or more in their serum;
and
3) they have sufficient androgen sensitivity for that testosterone to have a material androgenising effect.
To be eligible to compete in the female classification at a World Rankings Competition, and/or to have recognised any World Record performance in a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition, a Relevant Athlete must meet each of the following conditions (the "DSD Eligibility Conditions"):
- they must be recognised at law (for example, in a birth certificate or passport) either as female or as intersex;
- they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L for a period of at least 24 months;
and
- they must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or to have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
No, i mean, from your original post
"and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if..."
is no longer permitted
Great information once again, but this is not a DSD thread.
Stop right there, you muppet, turning a complicated discussion of legitimate rules adherance into your own personal display of stupidity by not taking 5 seconds to educate yourself on the background of the athlete.
Do you mean World Athletics's current rules for DSD athletes seeking to compete in the female category? If so, the level of T you're citing is twice the level now allowed.
World Athletics' upper limit for XY DSD athletes with testes competing in women's events isn't 5 nmol/L like you keep saying. The current limit is under 2.5 nmol/ like I said.
The limit has been under 2.5 nmol/L since new rules went into effect at the end of March 2023.
From the document titled, "World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for the Female Classification (Athletes with Differences in Sex Development) (Version 3.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)":
A "Relevant Athlete" is an Athlete who meets each of the following three criteria:
1) They have one of the following DSDs: 5α-reductase type 2 deficiency; partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (aka PAIS); 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 3 (17β-HSD3) deficiency;ovotesticular DSD; or any other genetic disorder involving disordered gonadal steroidogenesis;
and
2) as a result, they have a concentration of testosterone of 2.5 nmol/L or more in their serum;
and
3) they have sufficient androgen sensitivity for that testosterone to have a material androgenising effect.
To be eligible to compete in the female classification at a World Rankings Competition, and/or to have recognised any World Record performance in a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition, a Relevant Athlete must meet each of the following conditions (the "DSD Eligibility Conditions"):
- they must be recognised at law (for example, in a birth certificate or passport) either as female or as intersex;
- they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L for a period of at least 24 months;
and
- they must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or to have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
No, i mean, from your original post
"and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if..."
is no longer permitted
Great information once again, but this is not a DSD thread.
I know that this thread isn’t about male athletes with DSDs - or trans gender identities - competing in the women’s category. But the poster I was replying to, Armstronglivs, keeps saying that the T limits set for male DSD athletes competing in women’s events, which he’s taken from the rules set specifically for male DSD athletes, apply equally to female athletes in women’s competition. When that’s not the case.
What’s more, he keeps saying that the current limit for male DSD athletes in women’s competition is 5 nmol/L. Which is what you said in your last post too.
In fact, WA’s current teststerone limit for male DSD athletes competing in the women’s category is below 2.5 nmol/L.
So to set the record straight, I had to show what WA’s current rules for male DSD athletes in women’s competition actually say.
As to the information I cited about the below 2.5 nmol/L limit applying to male athletes with trans gender identities competing in the female category as well as to male DSD athletes in the women's category, my source is the latest version of WA’s regulations, namely the document titled
World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for Transgender Athletes (Version 2.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)
In section 3.2 on page 7, those regulations say that males with a trans gender identity can compete in the female category only if they meet the following conditions:
1) They must not have experienced any part of male puberty either beyond Tanner Stage 2 or after age 12 (whichever comes first).
2) Since puberty they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L.
3) They must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I know that this thread isn’t about male athletes with DSDs - or trans gender identities - competing in the women’s category. But the poster I was replying to, Armstronglivs, keeps saying that the T limits set for male DSD athletes competing in women’s events, which he’s taken from the rules set specifically for male DSD athletes, apply equally to female athletes in women’s competition. When that’s not the case.
What’s more, he keeps saying that the current limit for male DSD athletes in women’s competition is 5 nmol/L. Which is what you said in your last post too.
In fact, WA’s current teststerone limit for male DSD athletes competing in the women’s category is below 2.5 nmol/L.
So to set the record straight, I had to show what WA’s current rules for male DSD athletes in women’s competition actually say.
As to the information I cited about the under 2.5 nmol/L limit also applying to male athletes with trans gender identities competing in the female category, my source is the latest version of WA’s regulations, namely the document titled,
World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for Transgender Athletes (Version 2.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)
In section 3.2 on page 7, those regulations say that males with a trans gender identity can compete in the female category only if they meet the following conditions:
1) They must not have experienced any part of male puberty either beyond Tanner Stage 2 or after age 12 (whichever comes first).
2) Since puberty they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L.
3) They must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
Yeah, i think the 5nmol is stuck in everyones head from the trials/findings as what is scientifically flagged as the extreme allowed natural range leading some of us to erroneously asume that its what they use on the female biological passport. hence some people using the limit term. but i'll stop my uneducated self there, because i'm not passport educated and its more trend based and focused on blood markers.
Almost 100% positive Hiltz can't take testosterone pursuant to a TUE.
But can she take estrogen-suppressing drugs pursuant to a TUE? THAT I don't know.
What makes you so certain? What if the athlete claims she is in process of transitioning? Is there rule that TUEs cannot be granted in such a situation?
This is yet another reason why TUEs are so problematic - they are by design, exceptions to the rule and far too subjective.
Almost 100% positive Hiltz can't take testosterone pursuant to a TUE.
But can she take estrogen-suppressing drugs pursuant to a TUE? THAT I don't know.
What makes you so certain? What if the athlete claims she is in process of transitioning? Is there rule that TUEs cannot be granted in such a situation?
This is yet another reason why TUEs are so problematic - they are by design, exceptions to the rule and far too subjective.
On page 8, the document "World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for Transgender Athletes (Version 2.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)" says:
"nothing in these Transgender Regulations is intended to undermine or affect in any way any of the requirements of the World Anti-Doping Code, of the WADA International Standards (including the International Standard for Therapeutic Use Exemptions), or of the World Athletics Anti-Doping Rules. Nothing in these Transgender Regulations permits, excuses, or justifies non-compliance with any of those requirements, including any requirement for an Athlete to obtain a therapeutic use exemption for the use of substances on the WADA Prohibited List, such as testosterone, spironolactone, or GnRH agonists."
She has said she wants to take testosterone to 'affirm her gender' but that she "can't while competing". Hopefully she is sticking to the rules. Stating such a thing does raise some eyebrows though.
When/where has Nikki said this? Being trans nonbinary doesn't mean they want to transition. They just don't fit in our culture's rigid definition of gender, and don't want to use she/her pronouns. Please share a link to back up your statement.
LRC commenters are OBSESSED with the idea of Nikki transitioning, questions about why Nikki doesn't just compete against men, assumptions about what Nikki wants or believes.
The comments on this thread speculating on Nikki's body and running form are positively disgusting, and the fact that LRC lets them stand is a stain on this website.
Bring on the downvotes and the "woke" charges!!! they just prove your narrowmindedness and toxic masculinity.
Nikki's pronouns aren't as scary as you think. Relax.
If we assume it's "under a legal limit", there is no legal reason preventing anyone and everyone from taking male hormones.
Can someone explain this public obsession with Nikki Hiltz -- isn't she just a biological woman rightfully competing as a woman, who is just asking us to use different pronouns? I can understand the unfairness of XY DSD athletes, or biological male athletes, competing against biological women, but what is the issue here? Is it physical/biological, or mental/psychological?
There is isn't a "legal limit" to taking a banned substance, such as testosterone.
It's not my hypothetical. If you believe you have an answer to the OP's question, it's weird that you don't respond to the OP directly. Why reply to me with no answers to any of my questions, but the answer to someone else's?
The OP didn't ask about banned substances, but about "male hormones", with this exclusion "maybe not testosterone". So it's hard to see how your answer is even relevant to his question. I'm no chemist, so didn't want to presume what are the other male hormones besides testosterone, nor research whether they are banned at all times, by all methods, in all sports. A quick google search for a list of male hormones shows not all male hormones are prohibited, e.g. TSH:
Testosterone Control Hormones - FSH & LH Prolactin Oestradiol Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) Thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) Cortisol
What makes you so certain? What if the athlete claims she is in process of transitioning? Is there rule that TUEs cannot be granted in such a situation?
This is yet another reason why TUEs are so problematic - they are by design, exceptions to the rule and far too subjective.
On page 8, the document "World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for Transgender Athletes (Version 2.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)" says:
"nothing in these Transgender Regulations is intended to undermine or affect in any way any of the requirements of the World Anti-Doping Code, of the WADA International Standards (including the International Standard for Therapeutic Use Exemptions), or of the World Athletics Anti-Doping Rules. Nothing in these Transgender Regulations permits, excuses, or justifies non-compliance with any of those requirements, including any requirement for an Athlete to obtain a therapeutic use exemption for the use of substances on the WADA Prohibited List, such as testosterone, spironolactone, or GnRH agonists."
Many thanks for the citation. I will shut my piehole about TUE in this instance. Stand down Fancy Bear.
Good to see that the adults in the room anticipated TUE runaround for such a situation.
"sometimes I see trans people on their transition journey, like getting gender-affirming care or starting hormone therapy and things like that, and I feel like my sport is at odds with my identity, because I would love to do those things. But I’m not gonna take testosterone, start hormone therapy until I’ve closed this chapter of my elite running career. I do think that I want top surgery, but that’s probably five to ten weeks of no running. I kind of have to be like, ‘Okay, is that worth it to lose x amount of months of training to be affirmed in my gender more?"
The post-race depression that Nikki Hiltz experienced after making the finals of the World Athletics Championships made them realize that to remain motivated in the sport, racing had to be about more than personal victories....
There is isn't a "legal limit" to taking a banned substance, such as testosterone.
It's not my hypothetical. If you believe you have an answer to the OP's question, it's weird that you don't respond to the OP directly. Why reply to me with no answers to any of my questions, but the answer to someone else's?
The OP didn't ask about banned substances, but about "male hormones", with this exclusion "maybe not testosterone". So it's hard to see how your answer is even relevant to his question. I'm no chemist, so didn't want to presume what are the other male hormones besides testosterone, nor research whether they are banned at all times, by all methods, in all sports. A quick google search for a list of male hormones shows not all male hormones are prohibited, e.g. TSH:
Testosterone Control Hormones - FSH & LH Prolactin Oestradiol Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) Thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) Cortisol
The answer is simple but never with the contortions that you subject every argument to. Hiltz can take anything that isn't banned outright or banned beyond a defined limit. That won't include testosterone, which is the key hormone that determines male physical differences to female.
"and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if..."
is no longer permitted
Great information once again, but this is not a DSD thread.
I know that this thread isn’t about male athletes with DSDs - or trans gender identities - competing in the women’s category. But the poster I was replying to, Armstronglivs, keeps saying that the T limits set for male DSD athletes competing in women’s events, which he’s taken from the rules set specifically for male DSD athletes, apply equally to female athletes in women’s competition. When that’s not the case.
What’s more, he keeps saying that the current limit for male DSD athletes in women’s competition is 5 nmol/L. Which is what you said in your last post too.
In fact, WA’s current teststerone limit for male DSD athletes competing in the women’s category is below 2.5 nmol/L.
So to set the record straight, I had to show what WA’s current rules for male DSD athletes in women’s competition actually say.
As to the information I cited about the below 2.5 nmol/L limit applying to male athletes with trans gender identities competing in the female category as well as to male DSD athletes in the women's category, my source is the latest version of WA’s regulations, namely the document titled
World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for Transgender Athletes (Version 2.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)
In section 3.2 on page 7, those regulations say that males with a trans gender identity can compete in the female category only if they meet the following conditions:
1) They must not have experienced any part of male puberty either beyond Tanner Stage 2 or after age 12 (whichever comes first).
2) Since puberty they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L.
3) They must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
I don't "keep saying" what you claim. You show you don't bother to follow what others post on a thread.
This female (XX) has been one of my favorite for years now and the way she completes. I don't give a wit if she says she is non-binary as a personal opinion. However, I will change my mind if she is asked, "How many genders are they." If she's says 2. That's the Nikki I was rooting for.
Any other number will tell me that she is "Woke" and indoctrinated so that ideology trumps the truth. She may as well be saying the sun revolves around the earth and not that the earth revolves around the sun. Ideologues must change their own minds from within.
I went back and looked at college photos. Her hips were wider. Her waist was narrower. She had a bit of curves. How did her bone structure change since then? It makes no sense.
